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Could HSTs work freight?

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DasLunatic

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I was wondering if a pair of HST locomotives could in theory be used on freight services. I seem to remember something similar happened with the 50s and 55s in their twilight era, and would anybody use them to operate higher-speed services?
 
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Tom Quayle

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Can and has been know in an emergency situation. More often occurrence is a pair of power cars rescuing the sleeper out west.
 

Esker-pades

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I was wondering if a pair of HST locomotives could in theory be used on freight services. I seem to remember something similar happened with the 50s and 55s in their twilight era, and would anybody use them to operate higher-speed services?

Yes. Sorry to be blunt, but I'm sure a 43 loco could be stuck on the front of some wagons.
 

CosherB

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I was wondering if a pair of HST locomotives could in theory be used on freight services. I seem to remember something similar happened with the 50s and 55s in their twilight era, and would anybody use them to operate higher-speed services?

No, never in the real world.
 

edwin_m

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I was wondering if a pair of HST locomotives could in theory be used on freight services. I seem to remember something similar happened with the 50s and 55s in their twilight era, and would anybody use them to operate higher-speed services?

It would be possible but it wouldn't work very well. The reason has to do with tractive effort. This isn't the same thing as power, it is the pull that a locomotive can exert on a train. Particularly significant is the tractive effort at low speeds which is needed to get the train moving and to keep it moving slowly up a gradient. If a locomotive doesn't have enough tractive effort to start its train then however much power is used it will just spin its wheels.

Passenger locomotives like HSTs have a lot of engine power - a pair of power cars has more power than a Class 66. But they are designed for operation at high speeds and don't need much tractive effort because a passenger train isn't very heavy. It's rather like a car in a higher gear.

However the tractive effort of a class 66 at low speed is over twice as much as that of two HST power cars. This means that the 66 can get a much heavier train moving and keep it moving up a gradient. Incidentally it also means if a 66 was coupled to a rake of HST coaches in a race with a normal HST, the 66 would be faster away from a standing start! The set with power cars would overtake it soon afterwards because of their greater power and higher maximum speed.

This means that even with two power cars back to back, a HST would be rather useless as a freight locomotive. It could handle something lighter like a parcels train if there was a market for these, or it could handle a short intermodal train but intermodal trains tend to be long.
 
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GrimsbyPacer

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The Thrumpers were passenger trains and became excellant freight haulers in Northern Ireland. HSTs must be able to haul wagons if re-geared.
 
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RichmondCommu

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[WIBBLE] Perhaps they could be used to work mail trains à la the TGV POSTAL in France? [/WIBBLE]

Thank God for the WIBBLE, WIBBLE is great isn't it? The TGV POSTAL units are about to be cut up for scrap which is exactly what will happen to the vast majority of HST's in the next five years. Happy days!
 

NSEFAN

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We're the NI thumpers really "excellent" or just "good enough". There's plenty of freight locos sitting around in store should we need them. Freight these days is about bulk not speed in order to keep costs down.
 

sprinterguy

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I seem to remember something similar happened with the 50s and 55s in their twilight era, and would anybody use them to operate higher-speed services?
One class 50, renumbered 50149, was fitted with regeared class 37 bogies to assess the class' potential for working Cornish china clay trains, and one further loco, 50015, passed into the civil engineers' division at the very end of the class' life, but neither venture proved a success. As for the Deltics, as far as I am aware they were retained on East Coast passenger workings until the end of their lives in regular revenue earning service: Even at quite a late stage in 1981, the locos were being considered for a second lease of life hauling North Transpennine trains starting from the following year.

In a similar fashion, and as has been set out in the posts above, the HST power cars are very specialised vehicles that are not well suited to hauling freight trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Thrumpers were passenger trains and became excellant freight haulers in Norther Ireland. HSTs must be able to haul wagons if re-geared.
The NIR 70 class proved themselves quite adept at hauling (in pairs) a daily Londonderry to Lisbane freight train, but they weren't necessarily best suited to such work, even with a comparatively low maximum speed of 70mph.

Most of the first generation DMUs introduced to Britain in the late fifties were capable of handling a modest "tail load" of wagons, but they weren't considered well designed to handle such loads.
 

RichmondCommu

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One class 50, renumbered 50149, was fitted with regeared class 37 bogies to assess the class' potential for working Cornish china clay trains, and one further loco, 50015, passed into the civil engineers' division at the very end of the class' life, but neither venture proved a success. As for the Deltics, as far as I am aware they were retained on East Coast passenger workings until the end of their lives in regular revenue earning service: Even at quite a late stage in 1981, the locos were being considered for a second lease of life hauling North Transpennine trains starting from the following year.

A few Deltics did indeed work transpennine services at least as far west as Huddersfield before they were withdrawn. The contents of my tablet tell me that I saw 55015 in Huddersfield station on the 27.12.81 working a train to York from Liverpool.
 

Tom Quayle

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Not being cut up being transferred North to make edinburgh/glasgow to inverness more comfortable reformed as challenger style sets initially but possibly extending to full sets.

Scotrail taking around 30 is a number ive heard mooted,

Killing or cascading the voyagers on the South west to Scotland XC services is another idea doing the rounds. Trans pennine stop gap is another option

It's a solid design that has engines under 10 years old in most cases so there's atleast 15 years left in them. So scrapping on mass isn't likely,
 

sprinterguy

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Not being cut up being transferred North to make edinburgh/glasgow to inverness more comfortable reformed as challenger style sets initially but possibly extending to full sets.

Scotrail taking around 30 is a number ive heard mooted,
27 sets are going to Scotrail, formed initially of fourteen 2+4 and thirteen 2+5 sets, and intended to incorporate two 2+6 formations at a later date, post 2021.

Killing or cascading the voyagers on the South west to Scotland XC services is another idea doing the rounds.
It's a nice idea in terms of passenger comfort, but Virgin XC were of the opinion that you needed to reduce an HST formation to 2+5 in order to match Voyager timings, so the step up in passenger capacity wouldn't be so great compared to what might otherwise be the case. I don't know: Could the timings of the main NE-SW trains be maintained if the incumbent Crosscountry operator of the time were to reintroduce 2+7 HST formations as there were before?
It's a solid design that has engines under 10 years old in most cases so there's atleast 15 years left in them. So scrapping on mass isn't likely,
The mechanical and electrical equipment on the power cars is quite modern, but the coaching stock would need a range of modifications of variable necessity in order to fulfil the DDA regulations that come into force in 2020.
 

RobShipway

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27 sets are going to Scotrail, formed initially of fourteen 2+4 and thirteen 2+5 sets, and intended to incorporate two 2+6 formations at a later date, post 2021.


It's a nice idea in terms of passenger comfort, but Virgin XC were of the opinion that you needed to reduce an HST formation to 2+5 in order to match Voyager timings, so the step up in passenger capacity wouldn't be so great compared to what might otherwise be the case. I don't know: Could the timings of the main NE-SW trains be maintained if the incumbent Crosscountry operator of the time were to reintroduce 2+7 HST formations as there were before?

The mechanical and electrical equipment on the power cars is quite modern, but the coaching stock would need a range of modifications of variable necessity in order to fulfil the DDA regulations that come into force in 2020.

The doors for the carriages to be replaced by electrically operated doors being one of the chnages needed and as Chilterm found out, the doors on each of the Mk3's all seem to be different with no standard sizing so it maybe a case that the electronic doors have to be specifically made for each individual carriage which would take some time I suspect.
 

47802

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What happens to the HST's will be interesting now the South West is getting AT300 that leave potentially up to 31 FGW sets for scrap or use elsewhere eventually plus the VTEC and GC HST's.

I think its OK using HST's in the medium solution if there a plan to replace them by Electrification or Electrification cascade, but if you have to replace them with a new diesel train in say 10 years time you may be better looking to replace them sooner rather than later, which for me makes the Transport for Scotland decision a bit questionable.

It will be interesting to see what happens with XC and Midland HST's. The XC franchise is planned to be re-let very near to the 2020 compliance date, therefore presumably the DFT will make the decision about what do with the XC HST's, that may also be the case with the EMT franchise as well as even there any new build proposal from a bidder would be pushing the timescale a bit, an AT300 build for both these routes may make sense.
 
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59CosG95

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Thank God for the WIBBLE, WIBBLE is great isn't it? The TGV POSTAL units are about to be cut up for scrap which is exactly what will happen to the vast majority of HST's in the next five years. Happy days!

I know, we're just throwing our heritage away, aren't we? :lol:
(The original post was a complete mick-take, as I knew full well the POSTAL TGVs were facing the oxyacetylene)
 

D365

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What happens to the HST's will be interesting now the South West is getting AT300 that leave potentially up to 31 FGW sets for scrap or use elsewhere eventually plus the VTEC and GC HST's.

I think its OK using HST's in the medium solution if there a plan to replace them by Electrification or Electrification cascade, but if you have to replace them with a new diesel train in say 10 years time you may be better looking to replace them sooner rather than later, which for me makes the Transport for Scotland decision a bit questionable.

It will be interesting to see what happens with XC and Midland HST's. The XC franchise is planned to be re-let very near to the 2020 compliance date, therefore presumably the DFT will make the decision about what do with the XC HST's, that may also be the case with the EMT franchise as well as even there any new build proposal from a bidder would be pushing the timescale a bit, an AT300 build for both these routes may make sense.

*WIBBLE* ScotRail is set to receive 27 HSTs. There are 27 Class 222s. ScotRail will snap up the Meridians as soon as they're replaced on EMT.
 

edwin_m

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*WIBBLE* ScotRail is set to receive 27 HSTs. There are 27 Class 222s. ScotRail will snap up the Meridians as soon as they're replaced on EMT.

If Scotland's electrification programme continues, most of their HSTs will be replaced by EMUs or bi-modes at about the time they are life-expired.
 

najaB

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If Scotland's electrification programme continues, most of their HSTs will be replaced by EMUs or bi-modes at about the time they are life-expired.
I imagine that by 2025/2030 only the HML will be left to electrify. To my untrained eye Edinburgh-Aberdeen, Glasgow-Perth and Aberdeen-Inverness seem like they'll be pretty straightforward compared to the HML.
 

D365

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If Scotland's electrification programme continues, most of their HSTs will be replaced by EMUs or bi-modes at about the time they are life-expired.

*WIBBLE* Who's to say those bi-modes won't be the 222s ;)

AFAICT it all depends on how far electrification will progress within the next 10-15 years. That goes for MML and XC as well as in Scotland.
 

Chris125

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If I was the relevant ROSCO I'd be working out what would need to be changed for mk4s to work as HST trailers, it would surely be a whole lot cheaper than Chiltern-ising mk3s... but none of this has much to do with hauling freight!
 

gimmea50anyday

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[pedantmode] 50 015 wasnt the only engineers 50. The 50's were often used on civil engineer duties. Upon sectorisation and the introduction of the toothpaste colours NSE didnt want the image of their NSSA or NWXA allocated locos hauling battered dirty and scruffy looking freight wagons around, so when engines with high hours and limited use were moved to the DCWA pool large loco liveried examples simply received a yellow stripe under the cab windows. Being in NSE colours, 50 019 and briefly 50037 (retained for just a month but never seen in traffic as it received a new engine and went back to Mule Duties) were painted Laira Blue to remove the NSE connection. 50 015 received this colour scheme only for the final days charter specials, while 50 008 received dutch colours.

Ironically the lack of slow speed control equipment originally fitted to the 50's and removed during the refurbishment program was the reason the freight trials failed.
[\pedantoff]

If I was the relevant ROSCO I'd be working out what would need to be changed for mk4s to work as HST trailers, it would surely be a whole lot cheaper than Chiltern-ising mk3s... but none of this has much to do with hauling freight!

Being hauled stock eth is the standard single phase 1000v, a hst eth is 415v 3phase ac. So either conversion of the hst eth, or the fitting of a suitable eth power supply in the van area and fitment of the appropriate MU cabling is theoretically all thats needed in that respect
 
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cjmillsnun

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The doors for the carriages to be replaced by electrically operated doors being one of the chnages needed and as Chilterm found out, the doors on each of the Mk3's all seem to be different with no standard sizing so it maybe a case that the electronic doors have to be specifically made for each individual carriage which would take some time I suspect.

That is not essential. Porterbrook have offered alternatives including altering the slam doors to make them compliant. The main issue is better central locking, and some method of opening them from inside.
 
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CosherB

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If I was the relevant ROSCO I'd be working out what would need to be changed for mk4s to work as HST trailers, it would surely be a whole lot cheaper than Chiltern-ising mk3s... but none of this has much to do with hauling freight!

Why would you want to operate 25 year old LHCS with up to 40 year old power cars that currently have incompatible power supplies? Another solution to a problem that doesn't exist!
 

najaB

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Why would you want to operate 25 year old LHCS with up to 40 year old power cars that currently have incompatible power supplies? Another solution to a problem that doesn't exist!
To be fair to the Class 43s, most of the important bits (think engines) are much younger than that.
 

47802

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That is not essential. Porterbrook have offered alternatives including altering the slam doors to make them compliant. The main issue is better central locking, and some method of opening them from inside.

Given it will be essentially a power door railway by 2020 I can see that option only being taken up by charter operators
 
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