Could Manchester Victoria ever be expanded in future?

[Eric]

Is there any scope to add more platforms in the future or is the current six platforms the maximum the station will ever have?

 

[30907]

Basically 1. No and 2. Yes.
Might be room for an extra East bay, I can't visualise it, but no real point

 

[Eric]

Basically 1. No and 2. Yes.
Might be room for an extra East bay, I can't visualise it, but no real point

East as in heading to Leeds?

 

[greyman42]

East as in heading to Leeds?

Yes. Leeds is East, Liverpool is West.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Is there any scope to add more platforms in the future or is the current six platforms the maximum the station will ever have?

There was talk of opening two west facing bays not long ago, Until it was decided to terminate the stoppers at Rochdale and Stalybridge. so there is room at that side of the station.

 

[HSTEd]

What would be the point however?

The trend elsewhere has to been towards through stations at city centre locations - so to add bays seems unlikely.

And six through platforms gives buckets of capacity as it is.

 

[nr758123]

Except that there are only four through platforms, not six, and that there will shortly be a second electrified route into Victoria from the west, and nowhere eastwards where electric trains can be sent (I'm assuming Stalybridge electrification is either cancelled or indefinitely delayed, though apparently without any announcement to that effect). So a lot of electric trains arriving in the through platforms with nothing to do except terminate and then return the way they came.

 

[Eric]

Except that there are only four through platforms, not six, and that there will shortly be a second electrified route into Victoria from the west, and nowhere eastwards where electric trains can be sent (I'm assuming Stalybridge electrification is either cancelled or indefinitely delayed, though apparently without any announcement to that effect). So a lot of electric trains arriving in the through platforms with nothing to do excegpt terminate and then return the way they came.

That's is what I was thinking, where will all the trains go? Aren't the TPE services switching from Piccadilly to Victoria?

 

[Eric]

Yes. Leeds is East, Liverpool is West.

Cheers.

I remember Victoria in its heyday when it four or five bays and more through platforms before they built that horrible Arena on top of it.

 

[td97]

It's hopeful that the remodelling and various other track/signalling improvements will be completed first for Victoria - Stalybridge before it's finished off with electrification. It hasn't been officially cancelled, and once Manchester - Preston is finished, there should be an abundant workforce.
That's the optimist in me anyway.

 

[edwin_m]

Cheers.

I remember Victoria in its heyday when it four or five bays and more through platforms before they built that horrible Arena on top of it.

It had about nine bays. I just about remember it in the early 70s when it certainly had a lot but I coudn't swear to all of them (me being under 10 at the time).

If the Arena ever relocated it would be possible to add some more through platforms, although I don't see any likelihood or reason for that to happen. NPR/HS3 looks likely to create more east-west through capacity by means of sub-surface platforms at Piccadilly.

 

[HSTEd]

And a potential third city crossing could take more of the suburban traffic away using tram trains (or just higher speed trams)

 

[TBirdFrank]

There is plenty of room for up to four bays on the north side of the formation where Deal St box used to be and for two bays where East Junction used to be.

 

[lejog]

What would be the point however?

The trend elsewhere has to been towards through stations at city centre locations - so to add bays seems unlikely.

And six through platforms gives buckets of capacity as it is.

Indeed although there are only 4 through platforms, the capacity was quoted at 24tph in each direction with 100% through services, which is far greater than the total capacity of the lines to the east and probably to the west too.

 

[lejog]

Except that there are only four through platforms, not six, and that there will shortly be a second electrified route into Victoria from the west, and nowhere eastwards where electric trains can be sent (I'm assuming Stalybridge electrification is either cancelled or indefinitely delayed, though apparently without any announcement to that effect). So a lot of electric trains arriving in the through platforms with nothing to do except terminate and then return the way they came.

A lot of electric trains arriving at Victoria???? I haven't checked the latest planned timetable, but under the first Northern plan for May there was a grand total of one - a service from Preston which turned round in 5mins.

If there were a need to terminate more EMUs, Network Rail could have extended the wires a couple of 100m to the east to the turning facility for trains from the west at Brewery Junction.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There is plenty of room for up to four bays on the north side of the formation where Deal St box used to be and for two bays where East Junction used to be.

Deal Street is somewhat removed from Victoria so even if there were any platforms there they would need rather long travelators for them to be considered in any way part of Victoria. And all those newish apartment buildings mean that there isn't any room on the north side of the formation in any case. As for East Junction the existence of the Peninsula office block means there is precious little space next to the railway and the arena car park is right in the way of any access between that site and Victoria. I do find that reference to the "satellite" view of your preferred mapping website/app is useful before making claims such as this.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Deal Street is somewhat removed from Victoria so even if there were any platforms there they would need rather long travelators for them to be considered in any way part of Victoria. And all those newish apartment buildings mean that there isn't any room on the north side of the formation in any case. As for East Junction the existence of the Peninsula office block means there is precious little space next to the railway and the arena car park is right in the way of any access between that site and Victoria. I do find that reference to the "satellite" view of your preferred mapping website/app is useful before making claims such as this.

On platform six head west towards the footbridge and there is enough room for two bay platforms-where the trains used to enter the station for platforms 15/16. Okay the bridge may need removing - but I read somewhere these would be getting pulled down in the future.

 

[faltskog36abba]

It had about nine bays. I just about remember it in the early 70s when it certainly had a lot but I coudn't swear to all of them (me being under 10 at the time).

If the Arena ever relocated it would be possible to add some more through platforms, although I don't see any likelihood or reason for that to happen. NPR/HS3 looks likely to create more east-west through capacity by means of sub-surface platforms at Piccadilly.

There were 11 east facing bays, Platforms 1-10 were along the concourse. With platforms 1-4 being taken out of use in the early 70s -Due to the aborted Picc-Vic underground rail link, The other being platform 17 which was rarely used for passenger trains-Mainly stabling locos.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A lot of electric trains arriving at Victoria???? I haven't checked the latest planned timetable, but under the first Northern plan for May there was a grand total of one - a service from Preston which turned round in 5mins.
If there were a need to terminate more EMUs, Network Rail could have extended the wires a couple of 100m to the east to the turning facility for trains from the west at Brewery Junction.

But NR are currently extending the wires about 400m eastwards to beyond Victoria East Jn, to allow for reversals east of the platforms.
Also the bays P1/2 will be wired.
Victoria will have to cope with EMUs from the west (eg TP's Scotland services) terminating during disruption, and it won't be long before their 802s start operating electrically west from Victoria.
We might also expect to see 769s operating on some services through Victoria.
If you dig through the "HS3" feasibility studies, you will find maps showing an underground route from Piccadilly to Miles Platting, which would take a lot of Victoria's current traffic if it was ever built.

 

[yorksrob]

It might be worth considering what lies on the other side of the wall along platform 6.

If the construction is the same as over the current platform area, it might be possible to add a further two through platforms, particularly if the space can be spared by the arena. The approach routes either side are still there.

 

[Senex]

It might be worth considering what lies on the other side of the wall along platform 6.

If the construction is the same as over the current platform area, it might be possible to add a further two through platforms, particularly if the space can be spared by the arena. The approach routes either side are still there.

I've wondered about that too. A station with six through platforms would be much more flexible than one with the four through platforms and a couple of bays at each end.
To be fair, I suppose we have to admit that when Victoria was rebuilt the expectation was that it would never be more than a station of rather limited importance, with (an inadequate) Piccadilly trying to function as Manchester Hauptbahnhof, so not only were the facilities provided rather limited but so were the track layouts. They got 40 on the four lines up the bank, but used only 25 mph crossovers, which should mean that anything running through the junctions must face approach control and a train starting up the bank has to limit its acceleration away for quite some distance. At the west end, despite having the space of the former eight running lines to play with, they didn't do any more than 25 on all routes, only raised to 30 on the four running lines fairly recently. If we think of roughly comparable jobs done in Germany in the last 30 or 40 years that would probably have been 60 or 80 km/h on everything, running lines and crossovers.

 

[yorksrob]

I've wondered about that too. A station with six through platforms would be much more flexible than one with the four through platforms and a couple of bays at each end.
To be fair, I suppose we have to admit that when Victoria was rebuilt the expectation was that it would never be more than a station of rather limited importance, with (an inadequate) Piccadilly trying to function as Manchester Hauptbahnhof, so not only were the facilities provided rather limited but so were the track layouts. They got 40 on the four lines up the bank, but used only 25 mph crossovers, which should mean that anything running through the junctions must face approach control and a train starting up the bank has to limit its acceleration away for quite some distance. At the west end, despite having the space of the former eight running lines to play with, they didn't do any more than 25 on all routes, only raised to 30 on the four running lines fairly recently. If we think of roughly comparable jobs done in Germany in the last 30 or 40 years that would probably have been 60 or 80 km/h on everything, running lines and crossovers.

I suppose the majority of trains are going to be stopping there anyway, but some extra through capacity might be useful.

 

[Senex]

I suppose the majority of trains are going to be stopping there anyway, but some extra through capacity might be useful.

Of course, though many of the freights will run through. I was thinking more of arriving and departing speeds and times, and in the westbound direction of getting perhaps a slightly better speed from Victoria through Salford to Windsor Bridge Jn (Salford Crescent). I was interested at St Pancras the other day to see just how fast a Eurostar was coming into the platform by comparison with what we see from MML.

 

[lejog]

But NR are currently extending the wires about 400m eastwards to beyond Victoria East Jn, to allow for reversals east of the platforms.
Also the bays P1/2 will be wired.
Victoria will have to cope with EMUs from the west (eg TP's Scotland services) terminating during disruption, and it won't be long before their 802s start operating electrically west from Victoria.
We might also expect to see 769s operating on some services through Victoria.
If you dig through the "HS3" feasibility studies, you will find maps showing an underground route from Piccadilly to Miles Platting, which would take a lot of Victoria's current traffic if it was ever built.

It appears that you missed the context of my post, which was in reply to a post suggesting that on the completion of Preston electrification there would be lots of new electric trains terminating at Victoria. I was only trying to point out "lots" was in fact 1tph.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

the main concourse of the arena is above platforms 3-5 while the oval walkway around the auditorium is above 6. The other side of the wall will be the auditorium seating. Allegedly there are platforms behind the wall but no doubt these will be buried as part of the walls and foundations of the structure

 

[gimmea50anyday]

*** Edit ***

so unless the area can be dug out and underpinned in which case one platform may be possible, the only way to expand the station is to remove the arena

 

[Ianno87]

On platform six head west towards the footbridge and there is enough room for two bay platforms-where the trains used to enter the station for platforms 15/16. Okay the bridge may need removing - but I read somewhere these would be getting pulled down in the future.

Isn't that footbridge the fire escape for Platform 6? Doubt the space you're talking about is long enough nor can be configured with satisfactory access to/from the main concourse.

 

[TBirdFrank]

Dear Mr Hunter - please visit Specsavers.

To do so you may need to use those flexible appendages hanging from your abdomen which may also be useful if making your way from a concourse to a further platform as occurs in many locations.

 

[Ianno87]

Dear Mr Hunter - please visit Specsavers.

To do so you may need to use those flexible appendages hanging from your abdomen which may also be useful if making your way from a concourse to a further platform as occurs in many locations.

Not everybody is priveliged enough to have full working use of both legs, nor be able to cope with walking such distances (and nor do they require use of a wheelchair either)

And Deal Street is a full mile from Victoria, so hardly a short walk.

Plus when you're designing transport interchanges, the broad aim is to minimise generalised journey times through them by minimising lateral and vertical distances to travel. Bolting platforms on hundreds of metres away is hardly "world class".

 

[edwin_m]

I think the suggestion of a couple of west-facing bays was immediately west of the station where the trackbed "disappears" into the Arena - Deal Street junction is further away. This may be just possible for a 100m platform, although the gap between two viaducts might have to be infilled/bridged to provide the platforms themselves. I imagine the west end bridge could be replaced by a longer one with lifts to provide access to these platforms by walking to the ends of the existing platforms. It wouldn't be hugely convenient but no worse than the two platforms added at Marylebone or the one at Doncaster.

The question is whether this would be a net benefit. Extending trains to Stalybridge and Rochdale would not be necessary if they could terminate in these platforms so there would be fewer trains needed and less mileage. But on the other hand the Stalybridge and Rochdale lines would have a poorer service.