Could Merseyrail services be extended beyond Hunts Cross towards Warrington?

[jamesst]

I' m sure the Hunts Cross residents wouldn't be best pleased.

I'm sure they wouldn't be, it's merseyrail/merseytravel themselves that don't seem at all interested in that area in my opinion. Coupled with the well known power issues between South Parkway and Hunts Cross there seems to be a lack of willing or any ambition past South Parkway.

 

[B&I]

I'm sure they wouldn't be, it's merseyrail/merseytravel themselves that don't seem at all interested in that area in my opinion. Coupled with the well known power issues between South Parkway and Hunts Cross there seems to be a lack of willing or any ambition past South Parkway.

Sadly there seems to be a lack of ambition of any sort at Merseytravel. I often feel they had the stuffing knocked out of them when the tram scheme failed and have yet to recover the werewithal to do more than let their operations tick over (or in the case of the buses, steadily deteriorate)

 

[urbophile]

Sadly yes. The local politicians (I can't remember who in particular) made several gung-ho statements after the trams were cancelled to the effect that 'we can now put all this cash into improving Merseyrail.' Apart from Maghull North, what has happened?

 

[radamfi]

Sadly there seems to be a lack of ambition of any sort at Merseytravel. I often feel they had the stuffing knocked out of them when the tram scheme failed and have yet to recover the werewithal to do more than let their operations tick over (or in the case of the buses, steadily deteriorate)

Buses are largely out of their control, though.

 

[B&I]

Buses are largely out of their control, though.

If that's the case, it makes me even gloomier about any reversal in the near future of the steady reduction in routes and service frequency of recent years

 

[B&I]

Sadly yes. The local politicians (I can't remember who in particular) made several gung-ho statements after the trams were cancelled to the effect that 'we can now put all this cash into improving Merseyrail.' Apart from Maghull North, what has happened?

The DfT insisted they were pulling the plug because of concerns about project management, and claimed its contribution to the trams would be available for other transport projects. Sadly, no-one called its bluff.

Apart from Maghull North, the renovation of the underground stations, and work on Kirkdale depot, I struggle to think of any infastructure work performed since 2008. Still, this probably outstrips the infrastructure developments in many other parts of England

 

[apk55]

Would abandoning the limited stop service and just running the line as an all stations service with 3 or 4 TPH not be a consideration. Nice and simple to operate as no turn-back or overtaking required.
Sure it will upset some passengers from Warrington but a lot of intermediate stations may easily double their usage as they become much more viable for commuting.
Ideally electrified at 25KV and run as an extension of Mersey rail (changeover at Liverpool South Parkway or Hunts cross), the new Mersey rail stock would be just fine for the job. However this would have political problems of Mersey rail running into Manchester but I sure they could be solved.

 

[urbophile]

How long would the journey from Lime Street or Parkway to Manchester be under this plan? No doubt considerably more than the hour plus from Hunts Cross to Southport. South Parkway has already lost TPE so now the quickest way to Manchester from South Liverpool is the hourly East Midlands train. Currently the 'semi-fast' (!) Manchester Airport train limps along with many more stops than the former; is that a temporary arrangement?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long would the journey from Lime Street or Parkway to Manchester

Parkway is relevant, but Lime St is not - the main route is now via Chat Moss.

 

[edwin_m]

Would abandoning the limited stop service and just running the line as an all stations service with 3 or 4 TPH not be a consideration. Nice and simple to operate as no turn-back or overtaking required.
Sure it will upset some passengers from Warrington but a lot of intermediate stations may easily double their usage as they become much more viable for commuting.
Ideally electrified at 25KV and run as an extension of Mersey rail (changeover at Liverpool South Parkway or Hunts cross), the new Mersey rail stock would be just fine for the job. However this would have political problems of Mersey rail running into Manchester but I sure they could be solved.

That might work if NPR provides Warrington with fast Liverpool and Manchester trains. I can't see it happening otherwise .

 

[frodshamfella]

Sadly yes. The local politicians (I can't remember who in particular) made several gung-ho statements after the trams were cancelled to the effect that 'we can now put all this cash into improving Merseyrail.' Apart from Maghull North, what has happened?

Not much !! New trains coming but the others are 40 years old !

 

[frodshamfella]

How long would the journey from Lime Street or Parkway to Manchester be under this plan? No doubt considerably more than the hour plus from Hunts Cross to Southport. South Parkway has already lost TPE so now the quickest way to Manchester from South Liverpool is the hourly East Midlands train. Currently the 'semi-fast' (!) Manchester Airport train limps along with many more stops than the former; is that a temporary arrangement?

It' s done now, but I think it was mistake making the fastest route Liverpool to Manchester not via South Parkway and Warrington.

 

[frodshamfella]

If Transport for the North had more teeth ( and money !! ) would it help Merseyrail expand ??

 

[urbophile]

Parkway is relevant, but Lime St is not - the main route is now via Chat Moss.

I suppose you are right. But seeing as a large proportion of Liverpool's population would find it easier to travel from Parkway it is a great opportunity missed not to provide more fast services. And of course not to electrify the line which IMHO should have been done before the Chat Moss route.

 

[Chester1]

If Transport for the North had more teeth ( and money !! ) would it help Merseyrail expand ??

That would depend on the scale of work. A smaller project such as 25kv AC between Liverpool South Parkway and Widnes would fall entirely within Liverpool City Region Combined Authority area and would be reasonable for TfN to expect it to be a joint project between Merseytravel (which expanded to cover Halton in 2014) and DfT, with TfN having no involvement. If it was South Parkway - Warrington Central then it would still be a local Merseytravel + Warrington BC project.

 

[Nean]

So from my point of view (living with the CLC running literally down the back of my garden and commuting along it every day for a year through hell and high water) there are a few points that I'd like to offer:

• The Gateacre extension would be nice, however I'd expect there would be quite a few NIMBYs as the extension would bisect the park created when it was lifted originally. On top of this I don't think the line would be worth continuing to cross on the flat and would do better going under the CLC (apart from maybe a spur for maintenance/measurement trains) at Hunts Cross West. Whilst resilience could be added with a few extra minutes padding at the junction this could begin to make the journey (time-wise at least) less attractive than driving.
• As I stated in the thread last time this cropped up (I think it was about the time of the wall collapse last year), this route is prime for electrification! When I commuted I could guarantee without fail that every train to Manchester would leave HNX at least 2 minutes late. That's before it even leaves the boundary of the city borough! Whilst electrification is billed here as a panacea for every line from the West Highland to the St Ives branch, the CLC is one line where it would make a marked difference (and hopefully enough to add one of the more poorly served stations to other services).
• People seem to forget that people commute across Warrington. Quite a few people have houses along the CLC as one works in each city, as well as the massive draw that is Birchwood. Warrington Central is the most tedious station to wait at and the reason I got a car as sod waiting at WAC or LPY to get home thanks to Manchester services being non-existent to/from HNX after 1930.
• 3/4 tracking wants to happen at strategic points, yes I know it's never going to happen at WAC or IRL, however without skip-stopping it's the only way you're going to get more than 4 TPH down that bit of track.
• As others have mentioned, capping services at Parkway permanently would effectively stop Merseyrail services for a good portion of South Liverpool, including the JLR factory and a couple of other places on the industrial estate (Eli Lilly springs to mind).
• A comment further upthread mentioned Halewood only getting 1TPH and it seemingly being unfair- Halewood is already fairly car dependant due to the design of the suburb (unless you live near the bus station or Higher Road).
• Some people have got the Merseytravel boundary wrong - Hough Green is the last station in the Merseytravel zone, not Halewood.
• Currently, Warrington central does have a Merseyrail-esque frequency, albeit 2TPH fast and 2TPH slow and not spaced evenly. Whilst that does mean that the fasts tend to be crush-loaded in the peaks it's worth noting that it costs the same to get a "fast" season ticket as it does a "slow". I used to get the slow on £4/day on advances, but then they stopped doing advances so the £8.75 anytime became standard and allowed me to use the fasts as did more than a couple of my fellow commuters...

If I could have anything, it would be a stable (i.e. no 30 minute frequency and then a 1TP3H), resilient service for all stations without splitting the line at Warrington. I want to know that if I turn up to a station at XX13 then there will be a train to one end of the line or the other.

Glossary (due to TLA (three letter acronym) usage):

• CLC - Cheshire Lines Committee
• NIMBY - Not In My Back Yard - generally hate progress in my experience
• HNX - Hunts Cross Station
• WAC - Warrington Central Station
• LPY - Liverpool South Parkway
• IRL - Irlam Station
• TPH - Trains Per Hour
• JLR - Jaguar Land Rover

 

[B&I]

So from my point of view (living with the CLC running literally down the back of my garden and commuting along it every day for a year through hell and high water) there are a few points that I'd like to offer:

• The Gateacre extension would be nice, however I'd expect there would be quite a few NIMBYs as the extension would bisect the park created when it was lifted originally. On top of this I don't think the line would be worth continuing to cross on the flat and would do better going under the CLC (apart from maybe a spur for maintenance/measurement trains) at Hunts Cross West. Whilst resilience could be added with a few extra minutes padding at the junction this could begin to make the journey (time-wise at least) less attractive than driving.
• As I stated in the thread last time this cropped up (I think it was about the time of the wall collapse last year), this route is prime for electrification! When I commuted I could guarantee without fail that every train to Manchester would leave HNX at least 2 minutes late. That's before it even leaves the boundary of the city borough! Whilst electrification is billed here as a panacea for every line from the West Highland to the St Ives branch, the CLC is one line where it would make a marked difference (and hopefully enough to add one of the more poorly served stations to other services).
• People seem to forget that people commute across Warrington. Quite a few people have houses along the CLC as one works in each city, as well as the massive draw that is Birchwood. Warrington Central is the most tedious station to wait at and the reason I got a car as sod waiting at WAC or LPY to get home thanks to Manchester services being non-existent to/from HNX after 1930.
• 3/4 tracking wants to happen at strategic points, yes I know it's never going to happen at WAC or IRL, however without skip-stopping it's the only way you're going to get more than 4 TPH down that bit of track.
• As others have mentioned, capping services at Parkway permanently would effectively stop Merseyrail services for a good portion of South Liverpool, including the JLR factory and a couple of other places on the industrial estate (Eli Lilly springs to mind).
• A comment further upthread mentioned Halewood only getting 1TPH and it seemingly being unfair- Halewood is already fairly car dependant due to the design of the suburb (unless you live near the bus station or Higher Road).
• Some people have got the Merseytravel boundary wrong - Hough Green is the last station in the Merseytravel zone, not Halewood.
• Currently, Warrington central does have a Merseyrail-esque frequency, albeit 2TPH fast and 2TPH slow and not spaced evenly. Whilst that does mean that the fasts tend to be crush-loaded in the peaks it's worth noting that it costs the same to get a "fast" season ticket as it does a "slow". I used to get the slow on £4/day on advances, but then they stopped doing advances so the £8.75 anytime became standard and allowed me to use the fasts as did more than a couple of my fellow commuters...

If I could have anything, it would be a stable (i.e. no 30 minute frequency and then a 1TP3H), resilient service for all stations without splitting the line at Warrington. I want to know that if I turn up to a station at XX13 then there will be a train to one end of the line or the other.

Glossary (due to TLA (three letter acronym) usage):

• CLC - Cheshire Lines Committee
• NIMBY - Not In My Back Yard - generally hate progress in my experience
• HNX - Hunts Cross Station
• WAC - Warrington Central Station
• LPY - Liverpool South Parkway
• IRL - Irlam Station
• TPH - Trains Per Hour
• JLR - Jaguar Land Rover

If there was a Merseyrail service to Warrington Central or Birchwood every 15 minutes all-day, with the option of a quick change to either a CLC fast service (perhaps 2 fast trains per hour), or a stopping train into Manchester (assuming they ran every 15 minutes too), would this be a deal-breaker for you as a commuter ?

 

[Nean]

If there was a Merseyrail service to Warrington Central or Birchwood every 15 minutes all-day, with the option of a quick change to either a CLC fast service (perhaps 2 fast trains per hour), or a stopping train into Manchester (assuming they ran every 15 minutes too), would this be a deal-breaker for you as a commuter ?

Yes, and here's why:

I live 7 minutes (5 if I'm late) walk from HNX.
Currently it takes about 22 minutes for an all-stations train to get to WAC, and about the same (24m) for a fast train to get from WAC to MCO -Data taken from RTT for this past Sunday.
That's already a 46 minute journey on trains alone (for comparison the stopper I used to get out of MCO in the morning took about 50m-1h for a MCO-HNX run)
Adding in a 5 minute "quick change" that takes the time "in the system" (not counting to/from stations) up to 50 minutes - already as long as the stopper, however on the stopper, I could get a seat (more often than not a table), pull out a laptop and make use of the 2h/day that would otherwise be idle which having to pack up and move 20 minutes in throws out the window. The only time I've been able to get a seat on a fast is the old TPE 2210 off MCO towards Liverpool so I wouldn't be hopeful about getting one after having to change onto either the Norwich or Airport train...

With all that taken into consideration, it's something in the region of 1h minimum door-door. Off-peak I can drive from my house to the City Centre of Manchester in about 30-45 minutes, in rush hour this goes up to 1h-1h15... so a decent amount of times it would become a genuine consideration of whether I want to be able to work on the journey or get there quicker (and even then, breaking at WAC would spoil the whole working bit).

In short, whilst the current through stopper is slightly slower, a seat and laptop wins over changing and getting the express.

And for those noting my omission: I realise that the new Airport service (at least on the current timetable) stops at my local, seemingly answering my prayers, however would it continue to under the great hiveminds plans to Merseyrailify everything?

Now, what I would do with crayons fully locked and loaded (given that's the type of thread this is) would be (in one direction):
1TPH Fast Manchester>Warrington, then stopping to Limestreet
1TPH Slow Manchester> Warrington, then stopping to Limestreet
1TPH Fast Airport>Birchwood>Warrington>Widnes>Limestreet
1TPH Norwich>Birchwood>Warrington>Widnes>Limestreet
1TPH All Stations
With appropriate passing loops to let the fasts overtake the stoppers.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Sadly it is hard work to get Merseyrail to extend beyond the county boundary. Cheshire had to put up much of the funding for electrification to Chester and Ellesmere Port in the 1980's. But the new CWAC council seems unwilling to partially fund electrification of the Wrexham - Bidston line with Neston being the only station in the county. Lancashire has never seemed interested in the Burscough curves.

Too many services across the country are curtailed at county boundaries. So we have services stopping at places like Adwick, Robin Hood trains not extending from Worksop to Sheffield, and very few trains between Knottingley and Goole.

 

[frodshamfella]

Yes, and here's why:

I live 7 minutes (5 if I'm late) walk from HNX.
Currently it takes about 22 minutes for an all-stations train to get to WAC, and about the same (24m) for a fast train to get from WAC to MCO -Data taken from RTT for this past Sunday.
That's already a 46 minute journey on trains alone (for comparison the stopper I used to get out of MCO in the morning took about 50m-1h for a MCO-HNX run)
Adding in a 5 minute "quick change" that takes the time "in the system" (not counting to/from stations) up to 50 minutes - already as long as the stopper, however on the stopper, I could get a seat (more often than not a table), pull out a laptop and make use of the 2h/day that would otherwise be idle which having to pack up and move 20 minutes in throws out the window. The only time I've been able to get a seat on a fast is the old TPE 2210 off MCO towards Liverpool so I wouldn't be hopeful about getting one after having to change onto either the Norwich or Airport train...

With all that taken into consideration, it's something in the region of 1h minimum door-door. Off-peak I can drive from my house to the City Centre of Manchester in about 30-45 minutes, in rush hour this goes up to 1h-1h15... so a decent amount of times it would become a genuine consideration of whether I want to be able to work on the journey or get there quicker (and even then, breaking at WAC would spoil the whole working bit).

In short, whilst the current through stopper is slightly slower, a seat and laptop wins over changing and getting the express.

And for those noting my omission: I realise that the new Airport service (at least on the current timetable) stops at my local, seemingly answering my prayers, however would it continue to under the great hiveminds plans to Merseyrailify everything?

Now, what I would do with crayons fully locked and loaded (given that's the type of thread this is) would be (in one direction):
1TPH Fast Manchester>Warrington, then stopping to Limestreet
1TPH Slow Manchester> Warrington, then stopping to Limestreet
1TPH Fast Airport>Birchwood>Warrington>Widnes>Limestreet
1TPH Norwich>Birchwood>Warrington>Widnes>Limestreet
1TPH All Stations
With appropriate passing loops to let the fasts overtake the stoppers.

I think all services would need to stop at Liverpool South Parkway as it serves the airport.

 

[frodshamfella]

Sadly it is hard work to get Merseyrail to extend beyond the county boundary. Cheshire had to put up much of the funding for electrification to Chester and Ellesmere Port in the 1980's. But the new CWAC council seems unwilling to partially fund electrification of the Wrexham - Bidston line with Neston being the only station in the county. Lancashire has never seemed interested in the Burscough curves.

Too many services across the country are curtailed at county boundaries. So we have services stopping at places like Adwick, Robin Hood trains not extending from Worksop to Sheffield, and very few trains between Knottingley and Goole.

Yep not much joined up thinking of where people want to get to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think all services would need to stop at Liverpool South Parkway as it serves the airport.

I reckon those "semifasts" are a good idea for the whole service, TBH.

Get the wires up.

Then 4tph (I said 2 above, but 4 would be doable) Lime St, South Parkway, Widnes, Warrington C, all stations (maybe skip Glazebrook on 2 of them) to Manchester
and 4tph all stations to Warrington C, Birchwood, Urmston, Manchester Oxford Road and onwards.

With EMUs that would be reasonably quick - there is barely a line I know of that is such a good candidate for electrification and high acceleration 75mph EMUs with so many local stops.

I think usage throughout the line would be enhanced massively by such a pattern.

 

[urbophile]

But would there be capacity at Lime Street for such an expanded service?

 

[Nean]

But would there be capacity at Lime Street for such an expanded service?

Doesn't necessarily need to be Lime Street- expanding the box at Central for a 3rd sub-surface platform is another potential (albeit pie-in-the-sky) option- especially if a single Merseyrail hub/interchange is desired

 

[urbophile]

Doesn't necessarily need to be Lime Street- expanding the box at Central for a 3rd sub-surface platform is another potential (albeit pie-in-the-sky) option- especially if a single Merseyrail hub/interchange is desired

Pie in the sky but very desirable. I doubt if it would be worth expanding Central without at the same time opening up the Wapping tunnel to enable Lime Street local trains to be diverted. Then you could have say, 2tph Central... Mossley Hill... Parkway.. Warrington... Manchester as well as two of the four Northern Line trains via Aigburth being extended from Parkway/Hunts X at least to Warrington. In addition of course to the St Helens/Wigan trains via Huyton and Edge Hill.

But for the realistic, achievable future a more frequent and electrified service along the slow lines from Lime Street (with a couple of new or re-opened stations such as Smithdown Road) that continued along the CLC to Warrington (and Manchester?) would be a vast and welcome improvement.

 

[Urban-Savage]

Just out of interest - what are the well documented 'power' issues between Hunts Cross and South Parkway?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't necessarily need to be Lime Street- expanding the box at Central for a 3rd sub-surface platform is another potential (albeit pie-in-the-sky) option- especially if a single Merseyrail hub/interchange is desired

It's not *that* pie in the sky, because there's very little on top of it.

You could argue that it would make sense to open the lot out (a la Conway Park), stick a nice glass/blow-up plastic roof on top of it (nothing has been built there in the almost 40 years it's been as it is barring a couple of business units and a manky shopping centre that needs flattening anyway) and make it two or even three islands. Or even see if the likes of Westfield would come in, stick their shopping arcade on top and fund it from planning gain?

Bonus: Google Street View has taken some pics down there, and the business unit is owned by Network Rail, so even easier to get rid of it and open it out.

 

[jamesst]

Just out of interest - what are the well documented 'power' issues between Hunts Cross and South Parkway?

The live rail has long suffered from poor voltage that way meaning Merseyrail trains can operate in series past South Parkway.

 

[B&I]

Sadly it is hard work to get Merseyrail to extend beyond the county boundary. Cheshire had to put up much of the funding for electrification to Chester and Ellesmere Port in the 1980's. But the new CWAC council seems unwilling to partially fund electrification of the Wrexham - Bidston line with Neston being the only station in the county. Lancashire has never seemed interested in the Burscough curves.

Too many services across the country are curtailed at county boundaries. So we have services stopping at places like Adwick, Robin Hood trains not extending from Worksop to Sheffield, and very few trains between Knottingley and Goole.

Part of the problem is organisational. The authorities surrounding the county of Merseyside into which services run (or could run) should join Merseytravel in some way shape or form. At the moment, we have the odd situation where Halton is a member, despite having no Merseyrail services and its own bus company, whereas Cheshire West and West Lancashire have Merseyrail services but no.apparent involvement with Merseytravel.

 

[B&I]

Pie in the sky but very desirable. I doubt if it would be worth expanding Central without at the same time opening up the Wapping tunnel to enable Lime Street local trains to be diverted. Then you could have say, 2tph Central... Mossley Hill... Parkway.. Warrington... Manchester as well as two of the four Northern Line trains via Aigburth being extended from Parkway/Hunts X at least to Warrington. In addition of course to the St Helens/Wigan trains via Huyton and Edge Hill.

But for the realistic, achievable future a more frequent and electrified service along the slow lines from Lime Street (with a couple of new or re-opened stations such as Smithdown Road) that continued along the CLC to Warrington (and Manchester?) would be a vast and welcome improvement.

Another way of doing it would be to extend all Northern line services to Birchwood (on the basis that a terminus could be built there more easily, and to maintain a local service across Warrington), maybe 2 semi-fast TPH from Lime Street to Manchester Airport (maybe stopping South Parkway, Widnes, Warrington Central), 1 TPH to Sheffield and onwards, and however many stoppers from Manchester to Warrington Cdntral are needed. (Ideally, I'd put a chord in to enable the Manchester stoppers to run on to Bank Quay, but that may not even be physically possible)

While the Sheffield service would eventually transfer to HS3, and hopefully increase in frequency in the process, I suspect the CLC line would still require some 4 tracking to enable 4 TPH stoppers plus a continued semi-fast. Would 4 tracking as far as possible east of Hunt's Cross, a vit in the open country between Widnes and Warrington, and 1 or 2 stretches between Warrington and Manchester (perhaps west of Birchwood then somewhere close to Cadishead) be sufficient ?