Could Scotrail use 91/MK4 on the electrified lines between Edinburgh and Glasgow ?

[EIKN]

Any scope for Scotrail Intercity using the 91/MK4 on the Two electrified lines between Edinburgh and Glasgow ?
Eg the New Double Track Bathgate line ?.
After all the stock on that line is uncomfortable I found them noisy , infact the class 170 To Stirling was by far superior to those units in my humble opinion. Im not sure what class they are and im new to the railway enthusiasm scene so please bear with me .
Also Any scope Again to Acquire MK4 stock to run with Extra HST sets to for example Oban . With such comfort that that stock can provide , MK3 and 4 it would be a huge improvement on the horrific 156 Sprinter .
With draughts from a stuck open window etc .
Not pleasant in Winter , also that route is along haul on a sprinter or any DMU .
Equally Mallaig too used to take long loco hauled services A HST to there with either coach version would be a big hit I'd imagine . Picture windows to view Glenfinnan!.

 

[sprinterguy]

Introducing HSTs to the West Highland line would require a complete rewrite of the timetable to eradicate the joining and splitting of Oban and Fort William/Mallaig portions that has worked so well for the best part of thirty years. It would also be far more costly in terms of fuel usage and track access charges than pairs of class 156s on this highly subsidised rural route.

The HST power cars would also require modification to provide train supply to mark 4 coaches: At present, the three phase supply provided by HST power cars is incompatible with the standard supply utilised by Mark 4s.

Class 334s are currently utilised on the Bathgate line. It's a commuter railway, not one appropriate for high speed Inter-city stock: Introduction of even shortened class 91 + mark 4 rakes on this route would likely result in extended dwell times due to longer carriages with end doors, and extended journey times due slower acceleration away from frequent station stops. I don't know for sure but even, say, 6-car mark 4 formations would probably be incompatible with Bathgate and North Clyde (Bathgate services run through to and from Milganvie and Helensburgh) platform lengths that have been optimised for 6 x 20 metre EMU formations, as well as causing difficulties with a high frequency timetable through the Glasgow core based on fairly homogenous EMU timings.

Furthermore gauge clearance would be required for the mark 4s over routes they've never operated before: This might not be a sticking point, but it seems that the 158s have encountered some complications being gauge cleared for the West Highland line, and superficially at least they're similar in profile and dimensions to a mark 4 carriage.

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

If scotrail dont replace their 68 hauled service, could the MK2's be switched over for MK4's?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

ScotRail won’t need LHCS round the Fife in future as they will release loads of DMUs with Dunblane and Alloa.

91s and Mk4 even on the Glasgow - Falkirk High - Edinburgh is a stupid idea as although it’s an ‘Intercity’ or Premier Route, it’s optimal to use 100mph EMU stock. The 365s are ideal for it.

 

[route101]

I wonder with Stirling being Electrified and if the Stirling LNER service come back , a 91 set could be used

 

[Craigpotter]

An additional rush hour service from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Carstairs. Journey time roughly the same between the two cities with few stops invetween for dwell times. Full length platforms allowing 9 car trains which would be a crowd buster certainly during the peak times. 1 or 2 services each morning in each direction certainly would ease the pressure on the main E-G line?

 

[Esker-pades]

An additional rush hour service from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Carstairs. Journey time roughly the same between the two cities with few stops invetween for dwell times. Full length platforms allowing 9 car trains which would be a crowd buster certainly during the peak times. 1 or 2 services each morning in each direction certainly would ease the pressure on the main E-G line?

The fastest journey time available on the Edinburgh-Carstairs-Glasgow Central route is just over 1 hour. That's a 10-15 minute difference when compared to the current ~50 minutes offered via Falkirk High.

 

[Dr Hoo]

An additional rush hour service from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Carstairs. Journey time roughly the same between the two cities with few stops invetween for dwell times. Full length platforms allowing 9 car trains which would be a crowd buster certainly during the peak times. 1 or 2 services each morning in each direction certainly would ease the pressure on the main E-G line?

Recognising that the last couple of years have been a bit of a trial with engineering blockades and rolling stock problems are there actually any crowds to bust on the E&G? Once the Queen Street rebuild is complete I thought that there were going to be frequent 8-car EMUs.
I am not convinced that the odd, slower peak train leaving Glasgow from a different terminal would make a significant difference to overall passenger distribution.

 

[Aictos]

The Central Belt is ideal for EMUs/DMUs, yes IC stock might be more comfy but in terms of seating capacity, journey times and dwell times IC stock will most certainly be a downgrade.

 

[Stopper]

Recognising that the last couple of years have been a bit of a trial with engineering blockades and rolling stock problems are there actually any crowds to bust on the E&G? Once the Queen Street rebuild is complete I thought that there were going to be frequent 8-car EMUs.
I am not convinced that the odd, slower peak train leaving Glasgow from a different terminal would make a significant difference to overall passenger distribution.

6-car 170s have been packed full for ages. There are some 7-car 380/385s aswell as some 8-car 365s that can be packed full and standing at peak times too.

 

[PaulLothian]

A quick googling of acceleration rates for Cl 334 Vs a Class 91 set suggests that the EMU accelerates almost 3 times as fast. As I think that relates to dry and flat track, the actual difference would be quite likely to be worse in normal working conditions.
I wouldn't give this aspect of the original enquiry a minute's further thought...

 

[gingertom]

I wonder with Stirling being Electrified and if the Stirling LNER service come back , a 91 set could be used

are 91s & mk4 gauge cleared and does the 91 interfere with signalling on the route? Other than these points there's no reason why not.

 

[ainsworth74]

6-car 170s have been packed full for ages. There are some 7-car 380/385s aswell as some 8-car 365s that can be packed full and standing at peak times too.

In the peak you're always going to have trains that are full and standing it's fact of life. Always has been and always will be everywhere on the network. The best thing you can do is ensure that a) no-one gets left behind and b) that standees have the 'best' possible environment (for example standing on a 700 is far better than it ever was on a 319 down in Thameslink land). It strikes me that without spending additional millions on rebuilding Queen Street to take 12-car operation (which would be only needed on a bare handful of services) there's not really much to be done beyond points a) and b) above and that extra millions is really not going to pass any sort of benefit/cost analysis.

 

[Stopper]

In the peak you're always going to have trains that are full and standing it's fact of life. Always has been and always will be everywhere on the network. The best thing you can do is ensure that a) no-one gets left behind and b) that standees have the 'best' possible environment (for example standing on a 700 is far better than it ever was on a 319 down in Thameslink land). It strikes me that without spending additional millions on rebuilding Queen Street to take 12-car operation (which would be only needed on a bare handful of services) there's not really much to be done beyond points a) and b) above and that extra millions is really not going to pass any sort of benefit/cost analysis.

I understand that, and I was responding to a poster who was asking if there was even any crowds on the E&G.

A lot of passengers on other lines get annoyed that “the E&G gets the best treatment”. While this may not be far off, the current E&G upgrades are long overdue and it does genuinely have the biggest crowds of any line in Scotland that I have been on, by quite some distance too.

 

[ainsworth74]

I understand that, and I was responding to a poster who was asking if there was even any crowds on the E&G.

A lot of passengers on other lines get annoyed that “the E&G gets the best treatment”. While this may not be far off, the current E&G upgrades are long overdue and it does genuinely have the biggest crowds of any line in Scotland that I have been on, by quite some distance too.

Sorry with you now and I quite agree! E2G should have been wired decades ago (at the same time as the ECML I'd have said) with the consequent improvements that brings.

 

[Trainfan344]

Would 90+MK3s be a better option, they have better acceleration than a 91 and is 125 capability really nessecary?

 

[gingertom]

Sorry with you now and I quite agree! E2G should have been wired decades ago (at the same time as the ECML I'd have said) with the consequent improvements that brings.

I recall a radio interview given by Cyril Bleasdale, the chairman of BR in Scotland in the early 80s, at which he stated the E&G didn't need electrification. No doubt those who funded the railways back then leapt on this and held him, and his successors, to his statement.
Held back Scotrail's development by decades.

 

[Esker-pades]

Would 90+MK3s be a better option, they have better acceleration than a 91 and is 125 capability really nessecary?

Still much worse in comparison to an EMU. The dwell times would be increased as would acceleration times. EMUs are the best choice for a short/medium-distance commuter route like Edinburgh to Glasgow.

 

[Trainfan344]

360s from Anglia are available soon so might be useful...

 

[Dr Hoo]

I recall a radio interview given by Cyril Bleasdale, the chairman of BR in Scotland in the early 80s, at which he stated the E&G didn't need electrification. No doubt those who funded the railways back then leapt on this and held him, and his successors, to his statement.
Held back Scotrail's development by decades.

Cyril Bleasdale didn’t become Director, ScotRail until 1990. Worth noting that this was the era of brand new Class 158s on the E&G along with InterCity electrification of the Carstairs route.

 

[gingertom]

Cyril Bleasdale didn’t become Director, ScotRail until 1990. Worth noting that this was the era of brand new Class 158s on the E&G along with InterCity electrification of the Carstairs route.

I might be mistaken on the date but he was clear that diesel trains (158s) could deliver just as well as electric on the E&G so there was no point in investing heaps of money on the infrastructure.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I might be mistaken on the date but he was clear that diesel trains (158s) could deliver just as well as electric on the E&G so there was no point in investing heaps of money on the infrastructure.

Oh, yes. I remember Cyril saying it as I was working for ScotRail at the time. In the overall scheme of things it is interesting that the cheap and cheerful re-opening of Bathgate, Paisley Canal, the Rutherglen-Coatbridge line, Motherwell-Cumbernauld shuttles, Cumbernauld-Falkirk Grahamston and Stirling-Alloa with DMUs proved their worth to progress to electrification later. The ‘next generation’ of E&G stock was the Class 170 DMU. Whilst electrification is obviously ‘nice’, Cyril was actually quite right that diesel trains could (and did) deliver a lot of the ScotRail revival.

 

[gingertom]

Oh, yes. I remember Cyril saying it as I was working for ScotRail at the time. In the overall scheme of things it is interesting that the cheap and cheerful re-opening of Bathgate, Paisley Canal, the Rutherglen-Coatbridge line, Motherwell-Cumbernauld shuttles, Cumbernauld-Falkirk Grahamston and Stirling-Alloa with DMUs proved their worth to progress to electrification later. The ‘next generation’ of E&G stock was the Class 170 DMU. Whilst electrification is obviously ‘nice’, Cyril was actually quite right that diesel trains could (and did) deliver a lot of the ScotRail revival.

we can only speculate what might have been if he had fought for, and won, more electrification. I believe his reluctance may have been partly due to expensive engineering difficulties with wiring the Queen Street and Haymarket North tunnels- F&F conductor bar hadn't been accepted back then.

 

[ANWP Tom]

On the crowd busting note from the new timetable in the peak there will be 36 SLUs each way between Edinburgh and Glasgow via Falkirk (28/4x7 via high and 8/2x4 via grahamston) basically utilising the 4 car 385s to the max till dunblane wires are finished. (still 22 3 car 385 sat spare at millerhill each day at the change though)

 

[Starmill]

There are enough class 385s to operate 8 car services on the quarter-hour. I'm not sure what more could possibly be done?

 

[Stopper]

On the crowd busting note from the new timetable in the peak there will be 36 SLUs each way between Edinburgh and Glasgow via Falkirk (28/4x7 via high and 8/2x4 via grahamston) basically utilising the 4 car 385s to the max till dunblane wires are finished. (still 22 3 car 385 sat spare at millerhill each day at the change though)

In terms of crowd busting, the ‘via Grahamston services’ won’t do much. They will only serve Linlithgow and Polmont on the E&G mainline and will do the same job as what the Dunblanes currently do for Edinburgh travel.

 

[Highlandspring]

On the crowd busting note from the new timetable in the peak there will be 36 SLUs each way between Edinburgh and Glasgow via Falkirk (28/4x7 via high and 8/2x4 via grahamston) basically utilising the 4 car 385s to the max till dunblane wires are finished. (still 22 3 car 385 sat spare at millerhill each day at the change though)

Why are you expressing passenger capacity in SLUs, which is a measure of freight train length (i.e. 1 SLU = 21 feet)..?

 

[snookertam]

Recognising that the last couple of years have been a bit of a trial with engineering blockades and rolling stock problems are there actually any crowds to bust on the E&G? Once the Queen Street rebuild is complete I thought that there were going to be frequent 8-car EMUs.
I am not convinced that the odd, slower peak train leaving Glasgow from a different terminal would make a significant difference to overall passenger distribution.

There's also the issue of passenger behaviour. It's a struggle to get anyone to even consider a service to/from Central when they're travelling between the two cities.

Even when there's rugby on at Murrayfield, and there's countless announcements to get people to consider the Bathgate route from Glasgow as an alternative so they can avoid queues etc, nobody will use it. Journey times on all the other routes are always longer, and that will especially be the case once the 385's are fully bedded in.

If you're in Glasgow, THE Edinburgh service is that which runs from Queen Street High Level, all others are more for intermediate stations, although can be handy in engineering work situations.

I can't think of anywhere on the ScotRail network where a class 91 + mk 4 would be useful. All electric routes here are best served using EMUs.

 

[gingertom]

There's also the issue of passenger behaviour. It's a struggle to get anyone to even consider a service to/from Central when they're travelling between the two cities.
I can't think of anywhere on the ScotRail network where a class 91 + mk 4 would be useful. All electric routes here are best served using EMUs.

Subject of course to finding a suitable path and signalling/track permitting high speed, if you were to run a class 91 / mk 4 service between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh via the Shotts line non-stop it could be quite a short journey, ~30min. Is the Shotts line not the shortest route between the 2 cities?

 

[big all]

Subject of course to finding a suitable path and signalling/track permitting high speed, if you were to run a class 91 / mk 4 service between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh via the Shotts line non-stop it could be quite a short journey, ~30min. Is the Shotts line not the shortest route between the 2 cities?

no not by a long way via shots perhaps 55-60 miles on a trundeling route averaging perhaps 55- 60mph
falkirk perhaps 48 -50miles average 90 mph