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Could the APT Run on the WCML Today?

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whhistle

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Theoretically?
Could the APT run on the West Coast route today?
 
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mcmad

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No as the balise that controlled the tilt have been removed.
 
sprinterguy

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mcmad said:
No as the balise that controlled the tilt have been removed.
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As far as I am aware, balises did not control the tilt system on the APT as they do for the Pendolinos. Tilt was activated by a closed system of accelerometers fixed to the bogie frame. What APT did have was a system of track mounted transponders at 1km intervals that fed information to the Control-Advanced Passenger Train system, which gave the driver an in-cab indication of the higher permissable speed of the APT with tilt active. There are more details of the C-APT system here:
http://www.apt-p.com/aptcapt.htm

As these transponders will now have been removed or rendered inoperative, the APT-P would presumably be limited to conventional line speeds on the WCML, and that is assuming that space could be found to fit TPWS.
 
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Journeyman

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whhistle said:
Theoretically?
Could the APT run on the West Coast route today?
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Short answer, no.

Longer answer - possibly, but not without a huge amount of work, and I very much doubt you could get it working reliably enough, or allow it to tilt.

First off, you'd have to fit TPWS and OTMR equipment in order for it to work on the network at all.

Second, the tilt system was passive and worked to a greater extent than the Pendolinos, which are balise-controlled to particular extents at each location, so without this equipment fitted to trains, I suspect you'd have to disable the tilt system.

Third, the train was horrendously unreliable with far too many non-standard features (such as hydrokinetic brakes), so I doubt you'd get them working reliably after thirty years of non-use, and getting a safety case approved will be a nightmare.

Fourth, I don't know how complete the surviving vehicles are.
 
sprinterguy

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Journeyman said:
Second, the tilt system was passive and worked to a greater extent than the Pendolinos, which are balise-controlled to particular extents at each location, so without this equipment fitted to trains, I suspect you'd have to disable the tilt system.
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The tilt system on the APT was not passive, which relies on centrifugal force to tilt a vehicle on curves, but active as it utilised hydraulic rams controlled by the microprocessor which responded to data fed to it by the accelerometers.

I seem to recall reading that the APT-P was built to a smaller loading gauge than the Pendolino, eradicating the need for track balises the Pendolinos require to tell them when it is "safe" to tilt without potentially fouling the loading gauge, but suspect that an entirely theoretical APT run would operate with tilt isolated to err on the side of caution.
 
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Journeyman

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sprinterguy said:
The tilt system on the APT was not passive, which relies on centrifugal force to tilt a vehicle on curves, but active as it utilised hydraulic rams controlled by the microprocessor which responded to data fed to it by the accelerometers.
Click to expand...

I meant passive in the sense that it detected forces to activate tilt, rather than tilt being activated by trackside equipment.
 
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randyrippley

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I doubt if the gas turbines of the APT-E would pass modern emission standards
 
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Journeyman

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randyrippley said:
I doubt if the gas turbines of the APT-E would pass modern emission standards
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I don't think they'd have to, as anything old usually has grandfather rights, but I'd assumed we were talking about the APT-P at Crewe here. The gas turbines in APT-E were developed by Leyland but almost immediately discontinued, so I doubt you'd ever get them running again.
 
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richieb1971

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If there was a will, and loads of money to spend on it I'd love to see it out and about.
 
61653 HTAFC

61653 HTAFC

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47271 said:
Off topic, but yes, there were, from 1978:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Harrison

I've got a feeling that I read somewhere that Scotland's first female driver was based at Fort William in either 1978 or 1979 but I can't find any references online.
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There really ought to be a locomotive (or unit, but preferably a locomotive) named in her honour.

Unless there is, and I'm just unaware.
 
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boxy321

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Just repaint a Pendolino in the old colours and make the front all angled.
 
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Neil Urquhart

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Journeyman said:
I don't think they'd have to, as anything old usually has grandfather rights, but I'd assumed we were talking about the APT-P at Crewe here. The gas turbines in APT-E were developed by Leyland but almost immediately discontinued, so I doubt you'd ever get them running again.
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There is at least one truck that appears at events with a working gas turbine. In theory, they are simple(ish) devices and probably could be made to go again. I suspect getting the turbines to spin up would be a lot easier than getting the tilt and braking systems of the e-train reactivated.

I have speculated before as to whether the P-train could run on one of the larger preserved lines behind a loco? I guess the biggest issue would be transporting the vehicles there and TBH there probably wouldn't be that many people willing to pay up for the privilege.

The APT is rather like Concorde, it survives and could be made to work, but the politics, money and practicalities are just too much. If the APT was a much-loved icon (e.g. a BEL, Gresley Kettle, Spitfire or Vulcan) then public support might enable something to happen (A BEL style rebuild using other running units), but the APT just doesn't have the history. Given the politics surrounding the P-Train it's great that anything survived, BR management and politicians probably just wanted to get rid of them once the project had been canned.

Let's enjoy the APT legacy for what it is, at least it seems to be getting better publicity in documentaries now and given some credit for contributing to later generations of high speed rail vehicles.

NU
 
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Danfilm007

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Theoretically, one could expect the equipment to be used if the APT-P was successful and further developments happened.
 
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bastien

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Journeyman said:
I meant passive in the sense that it detected forces to activate tilt, rather than tilt being activated by trackside equipment.
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Or ''Autonomous Tilt" in the modern parlance. Tell everyone the control circuitry is Artificial Intelligence and collect your Silicon Valley venture capital!
 
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