Could the Borders railway feasibly be extended to Hawick or even Carlisle?

[Acfb]

I can't see any business case for the line ever being expanded south of Hawick. the X95 already adequately IMO serves the distance of 44 miles in 1 hr 20 minutes and has always appeared empty between there and Langholm whenever I've gone down the A7.

Even when the WCML was blocked north of Carlisle in March 2018 and I had to travel back to Edinburgh using the X95 via Galashiels, there were only a few fellow passengers on it going all the way to Galashiels.

I would never say never however to a very simple extension to Hawick with a solitary stop at Newtown St Boswells and wouldn't even bother with a Melrose stop.

I would put that in the same category as Matlock-Bakewell.

 

[30907]

I would never say never however to a very simple extension to Hawick with a solitary stop at Newtown St Boswells and wouldn't even bother with a Melrose stop.

Would that be feasible in 30 minutes (assuming dynamic loops at Melrose and south of St Boswells)?
Why omit Melrose when it is right next to the line?

 

[Bald Rick]

I can't see any business case for the line ever being expanded south of Hawick. the X95 already adequately IMO serves the distance of 44 miles in 1 hr 20 minutes and has always appeared empty between there and Langholm whenever I've gone down the A7.

Even when the WCML was blocked north of Carlisle in March 2018 and I had to travel back to Edinburgh using the X95 via Galashiels, there were only a few fellow passengers on it going all the way to Galashiels.

I would never say never however to a very simple extension to Hawick with a solitary stop at Newtown St Boswells and wouldn't even bother with a Melrose stop.

I would put that in the same category as Matlock-Bakewell.

There won’t be a case to take it to Hawick. Half a billion quid, with little benefit, and worse for the environment.

 

[Acfb]

There won’t be a case to take it to Hawick. Half a billion quid, with little benefit, and worse for the environment.

Didn't necessarily say there was hence my comparison with Matlock - Bakewell.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

The Campaign for Borders Rail are still pushing!

The Campaign for Borders Rail has made its case to the Union Connectivity Review, arguing that completing the line between Carlisle and Tweedbank will deliver economic boost, social inclusion and environmental sustainability.

The cross-bench group lobbying group stated that a new cross-border rail link would complete the Edinburgh – Scottish Borders – Carlisle railway, delivering benefits in line with the review's objectives.

Campaign tells Union Connectivity Review to complete the Borders Railway

Cross-bench group lobbying group argues extension will deliver an economic boost, social inclusion and environmental sustainability

www.insider.co.uk

(Do wish the several threads on this subject were absorbed into one!)

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

The ‘Borderland Growth Deal’ worth £350m has been signed off today. It will be interesting to see if the campaign uses it to further the cause so to speak.

Carlisle Station Gateway featues predominantly in this deal:

£20m for the Carlisle Station Gateway, transforming the city's railway station into a regional gateway and transport hub, with connections across the Borderlands area, and paving the way for the arrival of HS2 in the future.

'A key milestone' - Historic £350m Borderlands growth deal signed

CUMBRIA’S prospects for economic recovery were today given a multi-million pound boost with the signing of the Borderlands Inclusive Growth Deal.

www.newsandstar.co.uk

 

[madannie77]

The Borders Railway campaign is mentioned as receiving £10m for a feasibility study. It is in the Enabling Infrastructure section of the Borderlands Growth Deal website:

Borderlands Site

www.borderlandsgrowth.com

 

[najaB]

The Borders Railway campaign is mentioned as receiving £10m for a feasibility study.

£1M per letter in the result: Not a chance.

The full stop is free.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Borders Railway campaign is mentioned as receiving £10m for a feasibility study. It is in the Enabling Infrastructure section of the Borderlands Growth Deal website:

Borderlands Site

www.borderlandsgrowth.com

If so, that is an absolutely scandalous waste of taxpayers’ money.

 

[HSTEd]

In an engineering sense, sure.

Why would you want to?

It's empty terrain, there is nothing much out there to justify this route, indeed if not for inter company competition it might not have been built in the first place.

The money that would cost would be better spent on a stub of high speed line in the borders, which might actually get used.

 

[cle]

Might $10m go a nice way towards a second platform/loop somewhere. This needs intensifying long before extending.

 

[Wynd]

Perhaps one of the reasons the terrain is so devoid of people is its proximity to decent public transport? Chicken and egg anyone?

There are no engineering based reasons the line cannot be extended/reinstated back to Carlisle.

The recent announcement is welcome, we do as a matter of urgency need to grow our rail infrastructure here in Scotland back to something resembling a network that serves our many cut off rural communities.

 

[HSTEd]

If you wanted to do something for deep rural scotland with rail improvements, you would be far better off building the Dornoch cutoff, even with the bridge it would cost a small fraction as much as pushing even to Hawick and would do far more for more people.

 

[mrgreen]

Extending to Hawick isn't a stupid idea (though I'd guess there may be better ways of spending the shedload of cash needed). At least a fair number of people live there and the prosperity of the town would be enhanced by improved transport opportunities.
But beyond Hawick.... well, there's many square miles of not very much. I've walked there a lot, it's a great place to get away from the hurly burly of modern life.. lots of trees, sheep, birds, moors and not many people. And who in Carlisle seriously wants to go on the long journey to Hawick and Gala? It's about the best example you can imagine of a solution in search of a problem.
Looming Scottish independence makes the case for re-opening even worse. I'd say Ballater has a better case, if we did have the cash (and we don't).

 

[najaB]

Perhaps one of the reasons the terrain is so devoid of people is its proximity to decent public transport? Chicken and egg anyone?

Nope. If you build it, they will not come.

 

[Wynd]

Extending to Hawick isn't a stupid idea (though I'd guess there may be better ways of spending the shedload of cash needed). At least a fair number of people live there and the prosperity of the town would be enhanced by improved transport opportunities.
But beyond Hawick.... well, there's many square miles of not very much. I've walked there a lot, it's a great place to get away from the hurly burly of modern life.. lots of trees, sheep, birds, moors and not many people. And who in Carlisle seriously wants to go on the long journey to Hawick and Gala? It's about the best example you can imagine of a solution in search of a problem.
Looming Scottish independence makes the case for re-opening even worse. I'd say Ballater has a better case, if we did have the cash (and we don't).

At the risk on ensnaring myself in my own criticism of just yesterday, if said scenario does come about, having cash, borrowing to build infrastructure may, and I stress may, become easier. Anyway, let's not get me banned from yet more sections of the board for having the temerity to introduce heinous ideas.

But this is just it. If these areas had access, then we may see them attract more development and that would improve the local economies. I cant help but feel if it is a problem looking for a solution then perhaps we aren't taking the problems we already have seriously enough?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

If you wanted to do something for deep rural scotland with rail improvements, you would be far better off building the Dornoch cutoff, even with the bridge it would cost a small fraction as much as pushing even to Hawick and would do far more for more people.

I'd vote for that one!

 

[HSTEd]

Nope. If you build it, they will not come.

Maybe in a world where planning restrictions did not exist, it might work.

But not in the world we have.

 

[Wynd]

If we build it, they will come. Along with jobs, houses, tourists, freight and all manner of other tangible and intangible benefits. That's what rail infrastructure does and has always done.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps one of the reasons the terrain is so devoid of people is its proximity to decent public transport? Chicken and egg anyone?

There’s no decent public transport in large swathes of the Yorkshire Dales or North Yorkshire Moors either, but neither are particularly devoid of people.

 

[Wynd]

There’s no decent public transport in large swathes of the Yorkshire Dales or North Yorkshire Moors either, but neither are particularly devoid of people.

Population density is surely related to all manner of things, and the borders have a bit of a history of being shall we say unpredictable? Has Yorkshire suffered the same historical events leading to its current density?

Fact is if we have an area of land that is deeply under-populated compared to others, perhaps the question should be raised as to what we can do about that? Public transport goes a long way to answering this point.

For someone who builds railways, I don't get the impression you are terribly keen on building any more....? Please tell me I'm wrong...

 

[johnnychips]

I would have thought for the cost of building a railway from the end of the Borders line to Carlisle, innumerable other small projects in Scotland could be built, such as passing loops, reinstating triangular junctions etc. and would bring much more benefit to many more people than this strange idea.

 

[tbtc]

If we build it, they will come. Along with jobs, houses, tourists, freight and all manner of other tangible and intangible benefits. That's what rail infrastructure does and has always done.

I mean, I suppose we could spend the infrastructure budget on platform extensions, grade separation, electrification to East Kilbride/ Fife Circle, re-doubling a few lines, opening lines to Renfrew/ Methil/ Peterhead that kind of thing...

...or we could spend hundreds of millions of pounds on reconnecting Newcastleton, on the basis that I played Sim City many years ago, and if you stick a train line through some empty fields then that's the public transport equivalent of planting some magic beans and hoping for the best.

Seriously, where's the passenger demand going to be? I could see some logic in putting Hawick - Gala on a "long list" of prospective schemes... Carlisle to Edinburgh is always going to be faster via the WCML. So that leaves... Galashiels to Carlisle? Tweedbank is already over an hour from Waverley so Newcastleton is going to be over ninety minutes, which isn't an attractive daily commute, even if you build tens of thousands of houses there.

Or are you in favour of building lines through empty countryside generally?

 

[najaB]

If we build it, they will come.

But it was built, and they did not come. The railway existed for the best part of 100 years and didn't generate jobs, houses, freight or tourists. No reason to believe that it would now - certainly not enough to pay its way.

 

[Bald Rick]

For someone who builds railways, I don't get the impression you are terribly keen on building any more....? Please tell me I'm wrong...

Yes you are wrong. I’m very keen on building railways, most importantly because it is the right thing to do for the people of this country*, but also because it pays my mortgage.

However, as I’ve said multiple times before on these pages, I’m also a taxpayer. And I’m very keen on my taxes being spent where it can deliver the most benefit for the people of this country. Given we have limited resources (both financial and human), that means choices have to be made about which proposals are best for the country. Those choices are made based on an assessment of benefits delivered against the costs of each proposal.

Railways, as any keen student of the subjects knows, are best at moving large volumes of people or goods over distances of more than a couple of miles, or medium volumes over longer distances.

I also understand that sometimes building a new railway is not the best thing to do, as other solutions to a problem are often better. This one is difficult to judge in that respect, as there isn’t a problem to solve.


*I include Scotland in that, as I’m part Scottish myself.

 

[Wynd]

I disagree, there are more than a few problems as you put it. There are also benefits and opportunities which need to be developed.

What country? Please don't tell me you are going to defend the spending decisions of previous administrations of the UKGov in relation to how rail infrastructure has been developed?

I also fundamentally disagree on limited financial resources as anyone with a cursory interest in government finance would attest to given the events of the last year. Our resources are far greater than some would have us believe. We must be prudent to a point, but investment in the north has been strangled compared to the south. Not only is a rebalance overdue, it's needed to meet a number of future ambitions on climate, active travel, rail freight etc etc.

We have just endured the worst winter here for a decade, we personally had well over 4ft of snow and it drifter to 8ft in places. Driving was challenging for weeks. For some it meant not driving for a month. Now, wouldn't it be great if a high quality public transport option were available in such circumstances?

Just one example. Then we have poor bus services which absorb huge public subsidy. Congestion. Road accidents. Noise in residential areas. Insufficent access to job markets. Underdeveloped tourist markets. Youth migration out of rural and in to city, hollowing out our towns and villages.

For someone who works in railways, you surely know all these issues already, so im a little surprised you need them spelling out to you. Do you, or are you just being antagonistic for fun?

 

[najaB]

Then we have poor bus services which absorb huge public subsidy. Congestion. Road accidents. Noise in residential areas. Insufficent access to job markets. Underdeveloped tourist markets. Youth migration out of rural and in to city, hollowing out our towns and villages.

All of these exist, but a railway carting fresh air around the countryside isn't going to solve any of them.

 

[Bevan Price]

I disagree, there are more than a few problems as you put it. There are also benefits and opportunities which need to be developed.

What country? Please don't tell me you are going to defend the spending decisions of previous administrations of the UKGov in relation to how rail infrastructure has been developed?

I also fundamentally disagree on limited financial resources as anyone with a cursory interest in government finance would attest to given the events of the last year. Our resources are far greater than some would have us believe. We must be prudent to a point, but investment in the north has been strangled compared to the south. Not only is a rebalance overdue, it's needed to meet a number of future ambitions on climate, active travel, rail freight etc etc.

We have just endured the worst winter here for a decade, we personally had well over 4ft of snow and it drifter to 8ft in places. Driving was challenging for weeks. For some it meant not driving for a month. Now, wouldn't it be great if a high quality public transport option were available in such circumstances?

Just one example. Then we have poor bus services which absorb huge public subsidy. Congestion. Road accidents. Noise in residential areas. Insufficent access to job markets. Underdeveloped tourist markets. Youth migration out of rural and in to city, hollowing out our towns and villages.

For someone who works in railways, you surely know all these issues already, so im a little surprised you need them spelling out to you. Do you, or are you just being antagonistic for fun?

Sadly, if they ever decide to bring large developments to the area between Carlisle & Hawick, the first thing they will build is trunk roads, to allow lots of heavy lorries to pollute the atmosphere whilst delivering building materials.

 

[Irascible]

We must be prudent to a point, but investment in the north has been strangled compared to the south.

Point of order, as we're on our soap boxes - can you please say south-east ( and really "home counties" ) when that's what you actually mean? there's plenty of areas in "the south" who've been strangled just as much as "the north". My family comes from both ends, too.

I'm a little more bullish about projects than BR is, but rebuilding the entire line without firm commitments to build communities on the way is a bit much for me too. Are there any speculative plans for large developments in the Borders?

 

[Grumbler]

Hasn't one of the tunnels collapsed so would cost a fortune to reinstate or open up?