Could the Hope Valley be better utilised, following the completion of the upgrade scheme?

[Killingworth]

It's probably about time to draw this thread to a close. Users of services between Sheffield and Manchester are not receiving the 3rd fast hourly service the scheme was supposed to deliver. A possible 4th hourly service by extending the New Mills stopper is unlikely to appear any time soon. Users have not noted a significantly more reliable service. These aspects are, and will continue to be, covered in other threads.

For now, suffice to say that contractors are preparing to fully reopen Dore & Totley station car park by this coming weekend.

The tidying up work continues along the various sites. Sad to see that even before that has happened, the graffiti 'artists' have started work below West View Lane.

 

[Rail Ranger]

You have now got an hourly all stations local service which you didn't have before (there were gaps of more than an hour and some trains missed some stations). Also surely the double track through Dore & Totley station must have helped timekeeping compared with the single line?

 

[YorkshireBear]

You have now got an hourly all stations local service which you didn't have before (there were gaps of more than an hour and some trains missed some stations). Also surely the double track through Dore & Totley station must have helped timekeeping compared with the single line?

The project was for the hourly stopper and a third hourly express though. That's what was said when it was conceived and funded.

Its a lot of money to spend to get the stopper up from 1tp2h to 1tph, and an improvement in reliability that arguably isn't that noticeable due to issues elsewhere on the route. Effectively it's underdelivered. Which takes a shine of the benefits you outline which were worthwhile!

 

[yorksrob]

Ultimately you have to have the infrastructure in place to do anything. Only now can they improve the service - admittedly DfT has to work on the staffing and rolling stock issues now.

 

[Rail Ranger]

It is not clear that there is a path for a third fast train from Sheffield to Manchester in the Manchester area, even if it went via Marple. Would Piccadilly station be able to accommodate a third fast train in the train shed?

 

[Killingworth]

You have now got an hourly all stations local service which you didn't have before (there were gaps of more than an hour and some trains missed some stations). Also surely the double track through Dore & Totley station must have helped timekeeping compared with the single line?

We've had the hourly all stations stoppers since December 2022 after retirement of Pacers and introduction of 195s - before the scheme began. Yes, there has been a very small improvement to timekeeping but westbound stoppers are still frequently delayed by late running TPE services, themselves delayed east of Sheffield.

Totley Tunnel remains a bottleneck imposing a separation of 5 or 6 minutes between trains.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Ultimately you have to have the infrastructure in place to do anything. Only now can they improve the service - admittedly DfT has to work on the staffing and rolling stock issues now.

I think its been reported (I cannot find it now but will look and come back if I do) that constraints at Stockport and Sheffield mean the 3rd service cannot be introduced.

 

[Killingworth]

I think its been reported (I cannot find it now but will look and come back if I do) that constraints at Stockport and Sheffield mean the 3rd service cannot be introduced.

That's broadly correct. You can get round the Manchester end issues by accepting a 4th hourly train as the extended New Mills stopper. It tben has an issue with platform space in Sheffield and conflicts down the Sheaf valley from Dore. Doable, maybe, but not a priority.

With electification work pending down the Sheaf valley and reconfiguring at Sheffield that can be resolved - by 2035?

Longer existing trains are part of the answer, as they always were in the first place!

6 car TPE and EMR trains are now running on more services. Snag? 6 cars aren't needed east of Doncaster or Nottingham. EMR split. TPE don't. It all adds operational hazards with longer distance services.

Northern are running 3 car 195s instead of 2 car Pacers and that capacity is being stretched at weekends. They've tried 6 car but run into signalling issues when sharing long Platform 1 at Sheffield with a 6 car TPE. That's fixable, at a cost! Part of the electrification overall planning.

 

[yorksrob]

I think its been reported (I cannot find it now but will look and come back if I do) that constraints at Stockport and Sheffield mean the 3rd service cannot be introduced.

That's broadly correct. You can get round the Manchester end issues by accepting a 4th hourly train as the extended New Mills stopper. It tben has an issue with platform space in Sheffield and conflicts down the Sheaf valley from Dore. Doable, maybe, but not a priority.

With electification work pending down the Sheaf valley and reconfiguring at Sheffield that can be resolved - by 2035?

Longer existing trains are part of the answer, as they always were in the first place!

6 car TPE and EMR trains are now running on more services. Snag? 6 cars aren't needed east of Doncaster or Nottingham. EMR split. TPE don't. It all adds operational hazards with longer distance services.

Northern are running 3 car 195s instead of 2 car Pacers and that capacity is being stretched at weekends. They've tried 6 car but run into signalling issues when sharing long Platform 1 at Sheffield with a 6 car TPE. That's fixable, at a cost! Part of the electrification overall planning.

I'm inclined to think that extending the New Mills stopper might not be a bad idea. It could become a semi-fast on the Hope Valley section, taking in some of the more popular intermediate stops.

 

[DDB]

Isn't it more that it was necessary but not sufficient to allow the third fast service.

It also needs work at the Sheffield and Manchester end but when this scheme was planned those other works were also being planned. They will probably still happen at some point.

So this project hasn't failed in its purpose. It has done the part of the greater project it was supposed to. It has definitely overrun though.

 

[ricoblade]

westbound stoppers are still frequently delayed by late running TPE services, themselves delayed east of Sheffield.

My personal bugbear, as previously discussed and as to what the trigger point is to let the stopper go. A couple of weeks ago the 08:05 TPE was delayed and they held the stopper I was on for 10 minutes before letting it go. I bailed at Hope and a few minutes later I heard and then saw the very slow TPE crawling along.

6 cars aren't needed east of Doncaster or Nottingham. EMR split. TPE don't. It all adds operational hazards with longer distance services.

I'm not sure that is always the case. I often get a TPE from Sheffield to Doncaster and they seem to be well-loaded despite disembarkations at Doncaster and plenty of passengers getting on.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm inclined to think that extending the New Mills stopper might not be a bad idea. It could become a semi-fast on the Hope Valley section, taking in some of the more popular intermediate stops.

Watch that space

My personal bugbear, as previously discussed and as to what the trigger point is to let the stopper go. A couple of weeks ago the 08:05 TPE was delayed and they held the stopper I was on for 10 minutes before letting it go. I bailed at Hope and a few minutes later I heard and then saw the very slow TPE crawling along.


I'm not sure that is always the case. I often get a TPE from Sheffield to Doncaster and they seem to be well-loaded despite disembarkations at Doncaster and plenty of passengers getting on.

Not always, any more than all EMR services run empty east of Nottingham, but currently there isn't a workable and practical way to split TPE trains at Doncaster. Loadings can vary considerably, and at short notice on today's leisure dominated railway it would be hard to decide which to split.

Loadings can also differ greatly if other trains on the same route are cancelled or delayed - a not infrequent occurrence. Between Sheffield and Manchester the stopper can bring relief when something's gone wrong west of Piccadilly.

At the 2016 public inquiry this TPE issue was brought up, but now we know it was already too late to change anything like that!

it was suggested that it would ease the westbound congestion if the stopper were able to pull into the Dore loop to allow the TPE to pass, thus easing congestion between Sheffield and Dore. Subsequent inquiry suggests two or three reason for that. 1. Cost of 2 extra sets of points with attendant signalling. 2. Insufficient safe space within the loop for a long enough train. 3. Opposing cant angles between the curve coming round from Dore South and the Hope Valley mainline.

The alternative of making the tracks through Dore and Totley bi-directional station was also discounted. 1. Extra points and signalling controls - more to go wrong! 2. Back to issue we had before, a westbound service blocking anything coming east.

Adding a westbound loop at Grindleford may have been useful. Separately, we seem to be seeing more trains terminated there since the work was completed. It's an awfully difficult place for dumped passengers when something has gone wrong, as is Edale! This one would have been better being terminated at Dore - presumably there was a good reason and it probably returned to Sheffield; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P12687/2025-05-08/detailed

 

[Nottingham59]

All that effort to lengthen the Dore South chord was to allow longer stone trains to wait for a gap before crossing to the MML southbound. So the first question I have is how many stones trains per week are now long enough to benefit from that infrastructure intervention?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2025 ==

Yes, there has been a very small improvement to timekeeping but westbound stoppers are still frequently delayed by late running TPE services, themselves delayed east of Sheffield.

And the second question is why are westbound TPE services still frequently delayed before they get to Sheffield?

 

[Killingworth]

All that effort to lengthen the Dore South chord was to allow longer stone trains to wait for a gap before crossing to the MML southbound. So the first question I have is how many stones trains per week are now long enough to benefit from that infrastructure intervention?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2025 ==


And the second question is why are westbound TPE services still frequently delayed before they get to Sheffield?

First question, quite a lot depending on definitions. Others can probably comment on which of these trains planned yesterday are of interest bearing in mind it also helps trains coming off the MML; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nrOREWJ/2025-05-12/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=freight&order=wtt

Knock on effects at Grimsby, Keadby bridge, Scunthorpe, Doncaster, Meadowhall, Nunnery plus TPE crewing and unit issues!

 

[Dr Hoo]

As a fairly regular user of the Hope Valley locals and trains to/from Chesterfield via Dore I can say that it is now quite usual to see a freight standing on the South Curve. It is also far less common to be held up either side of Bradway Tunnel waiting for freight moves to be completed.

That part of the scheme has been an unquestionable success in achieving its aims.

 

[Nottingham59]

Others can probably comment on which of these trains planned yesterday are of interest bearing in mind it also helps trains coming off the MML; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nrOREWJ/2025-05-12/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=freight&order=wtt

That's a Monday, so all the trains that actually ran between 0600h and 2100h were empties going back to the quarries. (Though why empty waggons have to run during the day beats me.)

Looking at last Wednesday instead:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Dore West Jn all day on 07/05/2025

Train information at Dore West Jn all day on 07/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

there were only the following eastbound between 0600h and 2100h, unleass I have missed one:

• 0641h 6M52 800t (pathing load)
• 1519h 6F78 trailing load not given
• 1946h 6G75 2400t
• 2018h 6C76 2400t

Would a 2400t trailing load have fitted into the Dore South curve before it was lengthened, I wonder?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2025 ==

As a fairly regular user of the Hope Valley locals and trains to/from Chesterfield via Dore I can say that it is now quite usual to see a freight standing on the South Curve. It is also far less common to be held up either side of Bradway Tunnel waiting for freight moves to be completed.

That part of the scheme has been an unquestionable success in achieving its aims.

That's good to hear

 

[Killingworth]

That's a Monday, so all the trains that actually ran between 0600h and 2100h were empties going back to the quarries. (Though why empty waggons have to run during the day beats me.)

Looking at last Wednesday instead:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Dore West Jn all day on 07/05/2025

Train information at Dore West Jn all day on 07/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

there were only the following eastbound between 0600h and 2100h, unleass I have missed one:

• 0641h 6M52 800t (pathing load)
• 1519h 6F78 trailing load not given
• 1946h 6G75 2400t
• 2018h 6C76 2400t

Would a 2400t trailing load have fitted into the Dore South curve before it was lengthened, I wonder?

I doubt it, it would have hung over so more likely held at Totley Tunnel East.

 

[AndrewE]

That's a Monday, so all the trains that actually ran between 0600h and 2100h were empties going back to the quarries. (Though why empty waggons have to run during the day beats me.)

Signal boxes closed on Sunday nights?

 

[Jozhua]

It's clear removing rationalisation through Dore was sensible, as is adding some extra capabilities for increasing frequencies in the future.

More freight is also of key importance to remove trucks from the busy and tight roads through the peaks!

Of course, the stations continue to be a major constraint on capacity, both at the Sheffield and Manchester ends. Both are probably overdue generational remodeling, similar to the work that has been done around Derby and Nottingham.

Hope Valley upgrade was definitely necessary, but may take longer to fully realise the benefits of. Definitely making the case for a better rail strategy that is more goal orientated than project focused.

 

[Killingworth]

All that effort to lengthen the Dore South chord was to allow longer stone trains to wait for a gap before crossing to the MML southbound. So the first question I have is how many stones trains per week are now long enough to benefit from that infrastructure intervention?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2025 ==


And the second question is why are westbound TPE services still frequently delayed before they get to Sheffield?

This morning delays were caused by signal cable theft between Doncaster and Meadowhall!

 

[Donny Dave]

This morning delays were caused by signal cable theft between Doncaster and Meadowhall!

Specifically at Hexthorpe.

 

[Killingworth]

I was at Sheffield station this afternoon and saw the knock-on effect of a points failure near Hazel Grove. Fast services in chaos with long delays and truncations at Sheffield on both EMR and TPE services from both directions. I was wanting to board the 15.14 stopping service but when I got to Platform 2a these was a scrum of refugees from the delayed TPE 15.11. I had a sinking feeling when I saw 2 car 195008 pulling in. Water bottles handed out, move up the train, capacity there was not! TPE train still over half an hour away.

Some slick operational changes got another unit to substitute from Sheffield. Sardines were advised to leave the Northern service which still left full and standing.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...20/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

The point is that when things go wrong the stopping service provides vital back up capacity.

Incidentally, why are Northern so short of 195s at present?