Could we get to the point of being required to hold a valid ticket before travelling. No excuses

[Islineclear3_1]

I would be against this; the railway should be open to all.

Or rather, access to the railway should be open to all. Not everybody owns a smartphone. The railway should provide easy-to-use facilities for all and not penalize/criminalize those who are unable to access or understand complicated payment methods

 

[PeterC]

Or rather, access to the railway should be open to all. Not everybody owns a smartphone. The railway should provide easy-to-use facilities for all and not penalize/criminalize those who are unable to access or understand complicated payment methods

Not specifically a smartphone but there are plenty of places where you can only pay for parking by phone. If its good enough for motorists ....

 

[yorkie]

I was going to ask this in the DOO thread but thought it would be far too off topic - but this thread is exactly the place.

My girlfriend is Scottish and said she never used to buy a ticket prior to travel, just used to get on and someone would sell the ticket on board. So we got a train to Dundee from Edinburgh and back and that's what happened. However, on our next trip up we were in the middle of nowhere and got a train that was an LNER service. So I'm guessing it came from England. I was adamant we should buy a ticket before boarding on my phone but she was like stop stressing, my whole life I just buy the tickets on the train (unheard of for me being from London).

So a ticket inspector comes round and asks us for our tickets and she said can we buy 2 tickets to Edinburgh please and he was very upset and said we should get a fine, why didn't we buy the tickets before we got on etc. He actually said something about it being the law.

So what exactly is the law? Must you buy a ticket before boarding

Yes you are required to buy before boarding if facilities exist for you to do so.

The LNER staff member could have refused to sell anything other than an Anytime [Day] Single, without any Railcard discount, if ticket issuing facilities were available and accepting your chosen payment method at Dundee.

The same principle applies to Scotrail, but in practice they are perhaps more likely to issue a cheaper ticket type (where appropriate) and also any relevant Railcard discounts (if applicable).

Not specifically a smartphone but there are plenty of places where you can only pay for parking by phone. If its good enough for motorists ....

It's a false equivalence though; the equivalent would be a train having many many potential set down locations within a city and only some of them requiring a phone.

Trying to create equivalent situations for comparison purposes can be problematic.

 

[SussexSeagull]

There might be a lot fewer types of ticket in the future if the London model is implemented elsewhere.

At some point it seems fairly certain that London itself will go Oyster / Contactless only.

Would need the London model implemented much wider to allow passengers transferring between terminals to be able to get through ticket gates (or to continue allowing paper tickets at Network Rail Stations). Also would be a problem with one day travel cards.

Long way to go before this can happen and would need a national roll out of technology. With Southern I have always found the Key Card a pain to use, for example not just being able to add a Season Ticket at home without going to register it at station and mine not working after I converted it to Key Go.

 

[JonathanH]

Would need the London model implemented much wider to allow passengers transferring between terminals to be able to get through ticket gates (or to continue allowing paper tickets at Network Rail Stations). Also would be a problem with one day travel cards.

Nope. Just needs TfL to withdraw from the Travelcard agreement, which they have threatened to do, and the removal of free Cross London travel on the 'paper' tickets structure. Then TfL can go Oyster / Contactless only, like they are on buses.

There is no structural reason why outboundary travelcards need to continue to exist. Although they are among the most frequently bought tickets in the South East, the alternative would just be passengers buying day returns to London, and using Oyster / Contactless for their journeys around Zone 1. Tough if that costs people a little more than at present.

Equally, paying extra to cross London would increase TfL revenue.

 

[yorkie]

There is no structural reason why outboundary travelcards need to continue to exist. Although they are among the most frequently bought tickets in the South East, the alternative would just be passengers buying day returns to London, and using Oyster / Contactless for their journeys around Zone 1. Tough if that costs people a little more than at present.

Feel free to pay extra yourself but please don't pretend everyone else would be happy with this!

That said, from past threads it should be no surprise that I reject your proposals; I think I shall simply state now that I reject pretty much any fares proposal you post, to save me replying to them in future

 

[SussexSeagull]

Nope. Just needs TfL to withdraw from the Travelcard agreement, which they have threatened to do, and the removal of free Cross London travel on the 'paper' tickets structure. Then TfL can go Oyster / Contactless only, like they are on buses.

There is no structural reason why outboundary travelcards need to continue to exist. Although they are among the most frequently bought tickets in the South East, the alternative would just be passengers buying day returns to London, and using Oyster / Contactless for their journeys around Zone 1. Tough if that costs people a little more than at present.

Equally, paying extra to cross London would increase TfL revenue.

Charging passengers an additional fare to change trains across London - which is admittedly less common than it used to be now we have Thameslink and Crossrail - would be out of order and make the rest of the country begin to seriously question why London has so much money spent on infrastructure when they don't want anyone else using it.

As for Travelcards they do encourage people to visit from outside London due to its one off payment. The education that Londoners went through before moving to contactless would need to be repeated outside of London before it could be considered.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Just put a ticket machine on every train!

I'm not sure which country does this but at least one does!

 

[Furryanimal]

I don't have or want a smartphone.
I only buy advance tickets if making a long distance journey.
So if I arrive at my local station to make a short trip and find the ticket office shut and the machines not working( and one only gave me the outward ticket once-fortunately when the ticket office was open.Try explaining that to the guard!)I am supposed not to travel?
I could use my iPad but that requires wi fi at the station(not always working) and on the train(also not certain).
This idea needs kicking into touch.

 

[Snow1964]

Living near a station where ticket office opens mornings 5 days a week (but is randomly closed if the one lady is ill), has one TVM which is prone to faults, or running out of ticket stock (and when working often has queues just before trains arrive), and I don’t think it accepts real money (cash)

The station has two entrances, one to each platform, and nothing to get tickets at my nearest (step free) entrance, which is the platform which goes to two nearest cities. Can only get tickets by crossing a footbridge, and coming back across after getting a ticket).

The next station along the line has no ticket issuing facilities whatsoever, need to buy them from guard.

I agree long way from insisting on tickets before travel

It should be available to all, not just those with smartphones and bank cards.

 

[yorkie]

I think we are at least 10 years away from it being socially acceptable that people cannot board without a ticket with absolutely no excuse. The implication of that is everyone must have a smartphone to travel (or be accompanied by someone who does)

 

[A0wen]

I don't have or want a smartphone.
I only buy advance tickets if making a long distance journey.
So if I arrive at my local station to make a short trip and find the ticket office shut and the machines not working( and one only gave me the outward ticket once-fortunately when the ticket office was open.Try explaining that to the guard!)I am supposed not to travel?
I could use my iPad but that requires wi fi at the station(not always working) and on the train(also not certain).
This idea needs kicking into touch.

The reality is technology and society evolves.

Example - you can't pay cash for a bus fare in London now - if you'd suggested that even 25 years ago there would have been howls of outrage.

Similarly imtry going to your local ticket office and try paying by cheque - in most cases the answer will be 'No', in the few cases where it isn't 'No', it will be for a very limited number of tickets - usually annual seasons and sometimes only if it's a company cheque. Again 25 years ago that wouldn't have been viable..

 

[A0wen]

It should be available to all, not just those with smartphones and bank cards.

Even the most basic of bank accounts comes with a debit card. And since salaries and benefits are paid into bank accounts, you really can't live with out a basic bank account.

 

[ComUtoR]

It should be available to all, not just those with smartphones and bank cards.

Can I use a cheque ?

 

[Iskra]

Even the most basic of bank accounts comes with a debit card. And since salaries and benefits are paid into bank accounts, you really can't live with out a basic bank account.

Homeless people? Or people who get paid in cash, or are paid 'off the books'. While potentially not ideal situations, they still have the right to travel on the rail network.

 

[yorkie]

Can I use a cheque ?

No right to.

Payment Methods for Train Tickets | National Rail

There are lots of handy payment options available for you to buy your train ticket, whether it’s at a ticket office, from a ticket machine, online or on the phone.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Personal cheques are no longer accepted as a method of payment, as the cheque guarantee scheme has been withdrawn by the UK banks....

 

[ComUtoR]

No right to.

So, as this is a speculative thread, why can't I use Bitcoin ?

It's all well and good saying that it should be available to all but then still having specific exclusions.

If the system should be available to all then all methods should be accepted.

 

[yorkie]

So, as this is a speculative thread, why can't I use Bitcoin ?

Why should you be able to?

How is it even relevant?

It's all well and good saying that it should be available to all but then still having specific exclusions.

Valid payment methods are defined clearly; what's your issue with them?

If the system should be available to all then all methods should be accepted.

You're clearly being flippant; no way is this a serious suggestion.

 

[A0wen]

Homeless people? Or people who get paid in cash, or are paid 'off the books'. While potentially not ideal situations, they still have the right to travel on the rail network.

Homeless can get bank accounts https://www.hsbc.co.uk/help/money-worries/no-fixed-address/

Addressing homelessness
In partnership with Shelter, and other UK and local charities, we’re helping people without a fixed home address to open a bank account. This gives them a safe place to keep and spend money received from work or benefits, as well as a way to spend or save towards their future.

HSBC UK’s No Fixed Address programme is a specialist service available in selected branches. If you’re facing housing issues, or you know someone who is, you can get support or advice from the specialist housing and homelessness charities in your area.

and the Big Issue seller my wife and I encountered the other day had a card reader for payments.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Realistically, any trader has to draw a balance between what is affordable for them and what is convenient for the customer: make too many options available and the cost of handling payment will cut into profit, but be too restrictive and customers will go elsewhere (or in the case of the railway, maybe disproportionately increase their number of free rides).

Without knowing the figures for how many people pay for their train rides with cash, or how many people don't have access to a bank card it's hard to say if the point has been reached when a bank card or suitably enabled phone should be the only option for walk-up customers to pay their fare. But without evidence I suspect we're not there yet.

But I suspect that at some point we will get there. The question is whether this will be some time in the next five years or the next 25.

And I'd also note that just as cheque users are no longer catered for by the railway, it will probably be the case that at cutover there will be cash users who will no longer be able to get a walk-up ticket.

And finally.... please take 'walk-up ticket' to include contactless payments like on TfL.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Without knowing the figures for how many people pay for their train rides with cash, or how many people don't have access to a bank card it's hard to say if the point has been reached when a bank card or suitably enabled phone should be the only option for walk-up customers to pay their fare. But without evidence I suspect we're not there yet.

The only day that should be possible is the day when the Bank of England stops producing cash!

 

[ComUtoR]

Why should you be able to?

Because that's MY choice. This is all about being inclusive for everyone then why should those paying with cash have the exclusive on choice ? Cash is slowly dying out as a method of payment. Yet the arguement seems to be that we must still allow cash. Not everyone has a smartphone or a payment card is just as much as an edge case scenario as Bitcoin.

How is it even relevant?

It's relevant because it exists and is a potential method of payment. And this is purely speculative.

Valid payment methods are defined clearly; what's your issue with them?

I have no issue with them but it seems others do. If you are happy to accept that the method of payments are determined by the conditions laid down then various payment methods can be added or removed. I would happily accept the complete removal of cash.

You're clearly being flippant; no way is this a serious suggestion.

Flippant in what way ? Bitcoin has been around for years. It has even been used in retail stores (CEX as an example). I've even seen it on some websites.

Maybe I'm too open minded.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The only day that should be possible is the day when the Bank of England stops producing cash!

You're going to be very disappointed when you read the rest of my post.

 

[WideRanger]

Because that's MY choice. This is all about being inclusive for everyone then why should those paying with cash have the exclusive on choice ? Cash is slowly dying out as a method of payment. Yet the arguement seems to be that we must still allow cash. Not everyone has a smartphone or a payment card is just as much as an edge case scenario as Bitcoin.


Maybe I'm too open minded.

It would be valid if you accept the premise that all currencies issued by any credible (and non-credible) central Bank should be accepted. Which is rather unlikely. And then, on top of that, that the railways should be required to accept crypto currencies, and all of the inherent business risks they entail. It's hard to think of a situation which would make that attractive to a transport provider, unless they had an agenda to promote Bitcoin or another Crypto asset.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, as this is a speculative thread, why can't I use Bitcoin ?

Get a credit/debit card that has it as the funding source and converts to GBP that way, and pay with that. Just like if you want to pay by Euro or US dollars, for instance. I have heard of them existing.

 

[HSTEd]

Could a cash handling ticket machine be made simpler if it only accepted a certain subset of coins?

For example, a permit to travel machine that only accepted £2 coins?

 

[crablab]

I have heard of them existing.

Visa is particularly pro crypto and I think has some network level support for it. I think their intention is facilitate net-settlement, which some might argue rather defeats the supposed purpose...

 

[VauxhallandI]

Central Bank Digital Currency is a thing, unfortunately in my opinion

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't have or want a smartphone.

I could use my iPad

Well there you go - the solution! (Not forgetting that an iPad is effectively a smartphone, just a big one)

 

[Spamcan81]

Surely if you have somebody on the train able to sell tickets, then all that is required is for somebody to have a valid form of payment i.e. debit or credit card ?

Alternatively put a simple 'tap in' machine at each station with a minimum amount debited e.g. £ 3 in the way the Permit to Travel machines used to work and then the fare gets settled when the person is approached either by a revenue inspector or at the end of their journey ?

There are people who have such a poor credit history that they don't qualify for a card and have to pay cash. Do we bar these people from the railway.