Could we get to the point of being required to hold a valid ticket before travelling. No excuses

[Fawkes Cat]

There are people who have such a poor credit history that they don't qualify for a card and have to pay cash. Do we bar these people from the railway.

No. They can use pre-loaded cards. See https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/personal/find-a-card/general-prepaid-mastercard.html for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well there you go - the solution! (Not forgetting that an iPad is effectively a smartphone, just a big one)

Bit hard to scan on a gateline but possible I guess. But yes, the iDevice line these days is pretty much different sizes of the same thing.

No. They can use pre-loaded cards. See https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/personal/find-a-card/general-prepaid-mastercard.html for example.

A reasonable solution to the cash issue might be the railway teaming up with a bank for a branded, public transport only, fee free prepaid card loadable at Paypoint, Payzone and post offices. Useful for children too, and easier than managing their own Oyster a like.

 

[Spamcan81]

Even the most basic of bank accounts comes with a debit card. And since salaries and benefits are paid into bank accounts, you really can't live with out a basic bank account.

Not all working people are paid directly into their banks.

 

[MarkyT]

Homeless can get bank accounts https://www.hsbc.co.uk/help/money-worries/no-fixed-address/

Addressing homelessness
HSBC UK’s No Fixed Address programme is a specialist service available in selected branches...

Branches of all banks that seem to be steadily closing down across the country, like ticket offices. So even if not at this instant, you may be more likely than not forced to get a bus or train to your nearest outlet. How would one pay for that in a card/mobile-only regime.

 

[A0wen]

Branches of all banks that seem to be steadily closing down across the country, like ticket offices. So even if not at this instant, you may be more likely than not forced to get a bus or train to your nearest outlet. How would one pay for that in a card/mobile-only regime.

Major towns are keepimg their branches - ultimately there will be an online way of setting up a bank account - and no doubt charities which help the homeless will be able to provide the internet access to support this.

Once again, this feels like a reason not to do something, rather than a 'what is the solution' mentality. If such mentality had prevailed in earlier times we'd still be using pounds, shillings and pence and never have progressed onto decimal currency, let alone electronic payments.

 

[A0wen]

Not all working people are paid directly into their banks.

There's a very *good* reason to mandate they should be, in that it would remove tax evasion or money laundering.

No reputable company pays people "cash in hand", so you're talking about the disreputable end of the economy in any case.

 

[MarkyT]

Major towns are keepimg their branches.

Torquay lost its last HSBC this earlier year. I'd have to go over to Paignton to see a human now, not that I have had to personally for years. Noted a few days ago that the last Torquay Barclays is going in the new year. There was a cluster of branch closures in Teignmouth a few years ago. Building Society branches seem to be hanging on to a greater extent though.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Spoke to some older family members yesterday, who won’t use car parking machines that don’t take cash. Dismayed at the possibility of being barred from using the railway too, they don’t have smartphones and wouldn’t have a clue how to use a ticket machine. So many of these people still exist, it feels unfair to effectively ban them.

 

[yorkie]

Spoke to some older family members yesterday, who won’t use car parking machines that don’t take cash. Dismayed at the possibility of being barred from using the railway too, they don’t have smartphones and wouldn’t have a clue how to use a ticket machine. So many of these people still exist, it feels unfair to effectively ban them.

I cant see it happening for quite some time, to be honest. Even if there are calls for it.

 

[daodao]

Major towns are keeping their branches

Not in my experience. Some major banks, e.g. RBS, which as the former Williams & Glyn's Bank had many branches, especially in the Manchester area, has now closed all its branches within 100 miles of Manchester.

Other countries require that rail passengers hold a valid ticket before travel, as do light rail networks and TfL, so why couldn't this be applicable to heavy rail services in GB? There could be explicit specific exceptions just for minor stations with low use where a TVM would not be viable to install.

 

[Snow1964]

Spoke to some older family members yesterday, who won’t use car parking machines that don’t take cash. Dismayed at the possibility of being barred from using the railway too, they don’t have smartphones and wouldn’t have a clue how to use a ticket machine. So many of these people still exist, it feels unfair to effectively ban them.

Considerably more fall into this category, than say use a wheelchair.

Which rather makes it a legislation problem as looking after a minority (to comply with law), whilst ignoring a much larger subset of the population.

Paying by cash has been around over 190 years, paying by card is a relatively recent fad. The idea we dump a way that has worked for the lifespan of the railways seems wrong.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I cant see it happening for quite some time, to be honest. Even if there are calls for it.

This probably hits the nail on the head. But if we’re looking for early indications that cash won’t be accepted on the railway any more, we probably want to watch
- what major retailers are doing. If it turns out you can’t shop with cash in Tesco, then the railways may not be far behind
- the cost of processing cash. If it gets to the point that it’s costing more for the railways to collect cash from ticket offices/machines than the cash is actually worth then there will be a strong incentive to stop allowing it as an option.

 

[A0wen]

Not in my experience. Some major banks, e.g. RBS, which as the former Williams & Glyn's Bank had many branches, especially in the Manchester area, has now closed all its branches within 100 miles of Manchester.

Other countries require that rail passengers hold a valid ticket before travel, as do light rail networks and TfL, so why couldn't this be applicable to heavy rail services in GB? There could be explicit specific exceptions just for minor stations with low use where a TVM would not be viable to install.

Bit if we're talking about people who *don't* have an account currently, that's irrelevant. And RBS are part of Nat West and Nat West have at least a dozen branches across Greater Manchester.

 

[A0wen]

Torquay lost its last HSBC this earlier year. I'd have to go over to Paignton to see a human now, not that I have had to personally for years. Noted a few days ago that the last Torquay Barclays is going in the new year. There was a cluster of branch closures in Teignmouth a few years ago. Building Society branches seem to be hanging on to a greater extent though.

So change your bank if having a physical branch is important to you - Torquay has other banks.

Either way, the issue being cited was about those who don't have a bank account - they'd have no problem opening an account in Torquay as there are other banks there.

 

[A0wen]

Spoke to some older family members yesterday, who won’t use car parking machines that don’t take cash. Dismayed at the possibility of being barred from using the railway too, they don’t have smartphones and wouldn’t have a clue how to use a ticket machine. So many of these people still exist, it feels unfair to effectively ban them.

Bit in bold - 40 years ago they wouldn't have had a clue how to use a credit card or a cashpoint, or a microwave oven or any number of other technology based items they routinely use.

Are you saying society should never discontinue things because of some refuseniks who decline to even acquaint themselves with basic technology ?

My parents, in laws, aunts and uncles are all in their mid to late 70s - to varying degrees they've all adopted and use technology - at the very least having a smart phone and using Facebook or Whatsapp to keep in touch with children and grandchildren. This whole "the older generation don't get it" is manifestly inaccurate.

Over 2/3rds of 65+ are using Smartphones now https://www.statista.com/statistics/300402/smartphone-usage-in-the-uk-by-age/ whereas 10 years ago, only 3% were. In another 10 years it will be 90%+ which is the situation for every other age group.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Some major banks, e.g. RBS, which as the former Williams & Glyn's Bank had many branches, especially in the Manchester area, has now closed all its branches within 100 miles of Manchester.

Wasn't that partly a rebranding exercise? (To disassociate themselves from the Goodwin era RBS). Those branches which are left will invariably now be 'NatWest' branded.

 

[RailWonderer]

I know people where I live who pay and get paid at the Post Office because the high street bank shut down years ago and it's more convenient than driving to the nearby town for the ATM. Some older people also don't have bank accounts and have never needed them. Edit: Though you do need a bank account to be paid at the PO).

 

[Dai Corner]

I know people where I live who pay and get paid at the Post Office because the high street bank shut down years ago and it's more convenient than driving to the nearby town for the ATM. Some older people also don't have bank accounts and have never needed them. Edit: Though you do need a bank account to be paid at the PO).

How do they receive their pensions?

 

[najaB]

Other countries require that rail passengers hold a valid ticket before travel, as do light rail networks and TfL, so why couldn't this be applicable to heavy rail services in GB? There could be explicit specific exceptions just for minor stations with low use where a TVM would not be viable to install.

That's pretty much the current situation - you are required to purchase your ticket before travel unless there are no working facilities to buy the ticket you need.

 

[reb0118]

I agree but we have the odd anomaly that Scotrail ticket machines can’t issue concession tickets. it’s always in the pipeline but has been for years. I suspect it’s to do with the decentralised management of the concession system, very unusual for the Scottish government whose approach is normally centralise as much as possible.

The real reason is the nature of unsupervised sales from TVMs. There are three parties involved in a concession sale. The passenger, the railway, & the local authority concerned.

The local authority is liable for their part of the "missing" fare whenever a relevant concession ticket is issued. If these tickets were offered unsupervised at TVMs then the said local authority would become liable for potentially many more erroneously/deliberately issued incorrectly issued tickets than are done at present by staff members. This is a risk the the local authorities are unwilling to undertake, whether on behalf of their council tax payers, or otherwise.

There is a solution, of sorts, TVMs can issue tickets to smartcards. All Scottish National Entitlement Cards (NEC) should be smart enabled. Simply marry the systems together. Concession tickets could be enabled on TVMs but only to be issued to the relevant NEC - no NEC equals no concession. Would this stop erroneous issues? No, but it would make them highly unlikely, so unlikely than the local authorities might just accept the risk.

 

[HSTEd]

Spoke to some older family members yesterday, who won’t use car parking machines that don’t take cash. Dismayed at the possibility of being barred from using the railway too, they don’t have smartphones and wouldn’t have a clue how to use a ticket machine. So many of these people still exist, it feels unfair to effectively ban them.

The question is how much public money do you want to expend to avoid "banning" them?

At some point we have to stop clinging to very expensive practices just to allow a small portion of the population to ignore the modern world.

Cash acceptance is extremely expensive, either from ticket offices or from TVMs.

The percentage of ticket revenue paid in cash is undoubtedly falling rapidly, as it is everywhere.

 

[Watershed]

The question is how much public money do you want to expend to avoid "banning" them.

At some point we have to stop clinging to very expensive practices just to allow a small portion of the population to ignore the modern world.

Cash acceptance is extremely expensive, either from ticket offices or from TVMs.

You could say the same about lines or stations that only receive a (so-called) 'Parliamentary' service. Ultimately the railway is a public service, and there are still many thousands, if not millions, of people out there who would be excluded from using it if it went card-only.

I think the supermarket analogy is (unusually!) a good one here. Supermarkets are free to decide to go card-only; no-one can force them to take cash. But all the big chains have decided to keep accepting cash, because they know that will lose more custom - and goodwill - by becoming card-only than they'll save in cash handling costs and losses.

The railway is the same. London buses and trams may be cashless at the point of use, but you can go to almost any corner shop to top up an Oyster card with cash. That alternative simply doesn't exist with the railway, and unless and until it does, I can't see the railway going cashless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The railway is the same. London buses and trams may be cashless at the point of use, but you can go to almost any corner shop to top up an Oyster card with cash. That alternative simply doesn't exist with the railway, and unless and until it does, I can't see the railway going cashless.

I think it'd be fairly easy for the railway to do a deal with one of the banks to create them a prepaid debit card, then that would solve that.

 

[Watershed]

I think it'd be fairly easy for the railway to do a deal with one of the banks to create them a prepaid debit card, then that would solve that.

There aren't nearly as many bank/Post Office branches as corner shops that have PayPoint facilities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There aren't nearly as many bank/Post Office branches as corner shops that have PayPoint facilities.

I'd envisage it being possible to load at PayPoints, PayZones and post offices.

The mention of banks was just who would likely operate it.

 

[HSTEd]

I think the supermarket analogy is (unusually!) a good one here. Supermarkets are free to decide to go card-only; no-one can force them to take cash. But all the big chains have decided to keep accepting cash, because they know that will lose more custom - and goodwill - by becoming card-only than they'll save in cash handling costs and losses.

Supermarkets also don't have to maintain payment facilities over a vast network of highly dispersed locations, most of which have very little business.

The Supermarket chains wouldn't maintain 1000 locations (out of 2500) that cover 2% of their sales.

Indeed, allowing people to pay with cash at St Pancras or Waterloo is a very different proposition than letting them pay with cash at some minor halt with hardly any traffic at the best of times.

 

[duncanp]

Not in my experience. Some major banks, e.g. RBS, which as the former Williams & Glyn's Bank had many branches, especially in the Manchester area, has now closed all its branches within 100 miles of Manchester.

Other countries require that rail passengers hold a valid ticket before travel, as do light rail networks and TfL, so why couldn't this be applicable to heavy rail services in GB? There could be explicit specific exceptions just for minor stations with low use where a TVM would not be viable to install.

My bank is RBS, and in October they closed their branch in Birmingham city centre.

I can use Nat West to do all the banking functions that I used to do at the RBS branch.

But Nat West branches in Birmingham are getting a bit thin on the ground as well.

Other countries may require rail passengers to hold a valid ticket before travel, but they usually provide ticket purchasing facilities at the station.

Only in the UK could you require people to have a valid ticket before travel, and then not provide any means of buying a ticket.

The article below, whilst not rail related, shows that smartphone technology is not 100% reliable.

Lake District walkers warned 'not to rely on mobile phones'

People are urged to carry "critical" equipment such as a compass and map while outdoors.

www.bbc.co.uk

Lake District rescuers have warned that people are relying "totally on smartphone technology" on the fells.
Rescue teams have attended 606 callouts in 2022 up until Boxing Day morning.
On Christmas Day seven volunteers from Langdale and Ambleside went to help a walker who had fallen in what was described as a "challenging rescue".
Richard Warren, from the Lake District Search and Mountain Rescue Association, said phone batteries drain "very, very quickly" when it's cold.
"Your apps that will help get you off a mountain will just die," he added, stressing the importance of carrying a compass and a map, which he called "critical".

'No buoyancy aid'​

There are some 400 mountain rescue volunteers across the Lake District.
"It's nearly as busy as our busiest year which was 2021 with 681 callouts," Mr Warren told BBC Radio Cumbria.
"I would expect that by the end of the year we will be on around 620, it's been a very busy year.
"We had a very busy January last year so we just keep our fingers crossed people are listening to the safety messages."
Mr Warren urged people to be "adventure smart" and check safety advice online before setting off on a walk.
He also warned people to be aware of the dangers of cold water, after an increase in the popularity of paddle-boarding across the area.
"I drove past Grasmere the other day, there was a person out [with] no buoyancy aid. It didn't look like they had a tether, and if you fall into the water you may not survive.
"We are trying to avoid these tragic situations."

 

[RailWonderer]

How do they receive their pensions?

I met a guy once who said he worked in the motor trade for 20 years and has always recieved his money in checks. He will have to get a bank account soon though.

 

[A0wen]

I met a guy once who said he worked in the motor trade for 20 years and has always recieved his money in checks. He will have to get a bank account soon though.

Even payments in cheque require something to pay into - especially as virtually all cheques issued in the UK are 'crossed' which means they can't be written to cash.

 

[HSTEd]

Only in the UK could you require people to have a valid ticket before travel, and then not provide any means of buying a ticket.

The cost of providing a ticket machine on every station would be reduced by an order of magnitude if the requirement to accept cash could be dispensed with.

The only moving parts in such a machine would be the till-roll printer for the QR code ticket.