Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Rail Blues]

Unfortunately, as my consultant would be pleased to inform you, my post-stroke cognitive thinking ability and the associated ability to express myself in more simplistic written terminology is not the same as it once was. My good lady wife, now aged 76, was somewhat startled after the stroke relieving operation in 2012 to hear how I expressed myself in speech but was pleased to see that I was still able to express my thoughts into speech, albeit somewhat differently than before.

Maybe that sad experience should have made you rather more tolerant of typos made by others and less likely to chuck stones around your own glass house. I left school many years ago, so really don't want or need anyone getting the (virtual) red ink out.

Anything of substance you'd like to add to the issue?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe that sad experience should have made you rather more tolerant of typos made by others and less likely to chuck stones around your own glass house. I left school many years ago, so really don't want or need anyone getting the (virtual) red ink out.

Anything of substance you'd like to add to the issue?

I had been prepared to self-impose a sabbatical away from this thread some months ago as being the best policy for all concerned and again, it was only an alert seen this morning that brought me back to it. If people would not quote me weeks or months after contributing my own thoughts to the thread, then there would have been no reason whatsoever for me to make such a reappearance in order to comment upon what had been said.

One man's view of substance is not always the same view when seen by others. It is at times like this that one of the Vic Reeves oft-quoted sayings springs to mind....."He wouldn't let it lie"

 

[Bletchleyite]

They aren't going on the Valley Lines, they are going on Wrexham-Bidston.

 

[BucksBones]

They aren't going on the Valley Lines, they are going on Wrexham-Bidston.

Yes, I missed that for some reason... Thanks for the info

 

[lyndhurst25]

They aren't going on the Valley Lines, they are going on Wrexham-Bidston.

Could they get them to run to Birkenhead or round the Liverpool loop???

 

[507021]

Interesting to hear there will be Class 230s on the Borderlands Line in the future, I'll definitely be going for a trip on them when they enter service.

 

[D365]

Interestingly, the Borderlands Line was the subject of a recent case study into battery train operation. A sign of what's to come?

 

[BucksBones]

Seeing as we only found out a couple of hours ago, details aren't forthcoming, but anywhere between 10 to 16 vehicles depending on how you interpret the Welsh Government's Charts, entering service by Q3 2019. Given the timescales, I'd be inclined to think Diesel, but it could well be battery.

I have no idea how the Borderlands line works operationally but assuming you’re right in your interpretation from the chart of 10-16 units (I couldn’t make head nor tail of it personally!), isn’t that rather a lot - unless it’s ‘vehicles’ as in carriages? I suppose there’s no likelihood of seeing these anywhere else (such as Conwy Valley)?

 

[The_Engineer]

Could they get them to run to Birkenhead or round the Liverpool loop???

Only if fitted with tunnel regulation front emergency doors, etc......

 

[D365]

I have no idea how the Borderlands line works operationally but assuming you’re right in your interpretation from the chart of 10-16 units (I couldn’t make head nor tail of it personally!), isn’t that rather a lot - unless it’s ‘vehicles’ as in carriages? I suppose there’s no likelihood of seeing these anywhere else (such as Conwy Valley)?

5x 3 car Class 230 = 15 vehicles

 

[Domh245]

I have no idea how the Borderlands line works operationally but assuming you’re right in your interpretation from the chart of 10-16 units (I couldn’t make head nor tail of it personally!), isn’t that rather a lot - unless it’s ‘vehicles’ as in carriages? I suppose there’s no likelihood of seeing these anywhere else (such as Conwy Valley)?

Yes, vehicles as in carriages, so between 5-8x 2 car units, or 5x 3 car units (and variants in between).

 

[BucksBones]

Yes, vehicles as in carriages, so between 5-8x 2 car units, or 5x 3 car units (and variants in between).

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[delticdave]

Only if fitted with tunnel regulation front emergency doors, etc......

D stock did have front emergency doors when in service......

 

[HLE]

Fair play to Vivarail for getting their second order for their 230’s.

So that brings the total ordered up to between 8-10? 3 for WMT and 5-7 for wales and borders.

Still a long way to go to get all those potential 230’s shifted but it’s still progress.

 

[pemma]

Fair play to Vivarail for getting their second order for their 230’s.

So that brings the total ordered up to between 8-10? 3 for WMT and 5-7 for wales and borders.

Still a long way to go to get all those potential 230’s shifted but it’s still progress.

Very slow progress considering they started on their project before the class 769 Flex and there's 32 Flex trains on order.

 

[D365]

D stock did have front emergency doors when in service......

Although they are being welded shut in order to meet enhanced safety requirements.

Still a long way to go to get all those potential 230’s shifted but it’s still progress.

Very slow progress considering they started on their project before the class 769 Flex and there's 32 Flex trains on order.

I don't believe it remains their end goal to sell all of the D Stock coaches available. Especially since they were bought at scrap value, there is little need to recoup any initial costs. Their main business focus now is on the battery technology market.

I continue to await the entry to service of the first Class 769 unit with great anticipation.

 

[class387]

Very slow progress considering they started on their project before the class 769 Flex and there's 32 Flex trains on order.

I find it a bit ironic how Vivarail have a train prototype but little orders, yet the Flex project has had a surprisingly high amount of orders but no train.

 

[capital12]

Fair play to Vivarail for getting their second order for their 230’s.

So that brings the total ordered up to between 8-10? 3 for WMT and 5-7 for wales and borders.

Still a long way to go to get all those potential 230’s shifted but it’s still progress.

You may view it as progress but I would call it going backwards!

How anyone can view introducing some late 70s/early 80s old Underground tat, to the mainline network as progress is beyond me.

Progress would be sending them all to Booths where they belong and should have gone 2 years ago!

 

[D365]

Progress would be sending them all to Booths where they belong and should have gone 2 years ago!

I’ll make sure to pass this on to Messrs Shooter and co, I can bet they’ll really appreciate this suggestion

 

[capital12]

I’ll make sure to pass this on to Messrs Shooter and co, I can bet they’ll really appreciate this suggestion

That’ll be great thanks!

It’s the constant BS from their publicity team that really p’s me off though. Constantly going on about them being brand new trains - err no, you’ve slung a transit engine or some Duracell’s under a 40 year Underground train not even designed for mainline use!

And I still hope to god one never crashes...

 

[sw1ller]

That’ll be great thanks!

It’s the constant BS from their publicity team that really p’s me off though. Constantly going on about them being brand new trains - err no, you’ve slung a transit engine or some Duracell’s under a 40 year Underground train not even designed for mainline use!

And I still hope to god one never crashes...

Can I ask why, I’m new to the thread and really can’t be mithered to read through it all.

 

[D365]

... under a 40 year Underground train not even designed for mainline use!

 

[HLE]

You may view it as progress but I would call it going backwards!

How anyone can view introducing some late 70s/early 80s old Underground tat, to the mainline network as progress is beyond me.

Progress would be sending them all to Booths where they belong and should have gone 2 years ago!

It’s progress in getting those units out on the network and in service. I didn’t say it was progress for the railway as a whole, although if it can increase capacity on an already bursting-at-the-seams network bring it on I say.

 

[capital12]

I would say that was a mainline train working on a Metro line, quite different!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

5x 3 car Class 230 = 15 vehicles

What type of seating layout has been specified in this newly-placed order?

 

[mallard]

As far as passenger environment goes, a 230 is far nicer than either a Pacer or mostly-original-interior Sprinter. That's definitely progress.

The 2004-2008 TfL refurbishment with further updates (removing transverse seating) from Vivarail is at least as good as any "mainline" train designed for short journeys. The average passenger doesn't care how "old" the train is (except when the press point it out) as long as it's comfortable and keeps time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What type of seating layout has been specified in this newly-placed order?

I very much doubt they have specified anything yet.

 

[capital12]

Can I ask why, I’m new to the thread and really can’t be mithered to read through it all.

Being designed as a tube/metro unit the crash worthiness is nothing like that required for mainline stock - there is a photo somewhere of one having hit the buffers at low speed on the Underground and the damage is quite severe.

That’s not to say that Pacers are great either, but at least they’re on their way out not in!!

Vivi wotsit staged some tests, having welded a few extra bits of metal in the cab, by rolling one slowly into a plank of wood and a balloon full of water which was supposed to show how safe they had made it, but was largely regarded at the time as not being a suitable test to prove it was up to modern standards. They are basically getting away with it due to grandfather rights thanks to shared operation on parts of the district line.

Metro type lines being largely sterile and not featuring potential crash hazards such as road vehicles on level crossings etc.

 

[sw1ller]

Being designed as a tube/metro unit the crash worthiness is nothing like that required for mainline stock - there is a photo somewhere of one having hit the buffers at low speed on the Underground and the damage is quite severe.

That’s not to say that Pacers are great either, but at least they’re on their way out not in!!

Vivi wotsit staged some tests, having welded a few extra bits of metal in the cab, by rolling one slowly into a plank of wood and a balloon full of water which was supposed to show how safe they had made it, but was largely regarded at the time as not being a suitable test to prove it was up to modern standards. They are basically getting away with it due to grandfather rights thanks to shared operation on parts of the district line.

Metro type lines being largely sterile and not featuring potential crash hazards such as road vehicles on level crossings etc.

Thank you for that. Bit disturbing that I’ll be at the very front of the things! But I don’t make a habit of hitting the blocks at Wrexham central so I’m not too worried. As long as they have good breaks I’m happy.

 

[67018]

Being designed as a tube/metro unit the crash worthiness is nothing like that required for mainline stock - there is a photo somewhere of one having hit the buffers at low speed on the Underground and the damage is quite severe.

That’s not to say that Pacers are great either, but at least they’re on their way out not in!!

Vivi wotsit staged some tests, having welded a few extra bits of metal in the cab, by rolling one slowly into a plank of wood and a balloon full of water which was supposed to show how safe they had made it, but was largely regarded at the time as not being a suitable test to prove it was up to modern standards. They are basically getting away with it due to grandfather rights thanks to shared operation on parts of the district line.

Metro type lines being largely sterile and not featuring potential crash hazards such as road vehicles on level crossings etc.

Do we really need to rehash these tired old arguments again which have already been done to death several times over? Some people have strong opinions about these units which they won’t change regardless of the evidence or counter arguments, I get it, but it gets tedious to read. Especially when we’re closer to having some real news to discuss.