Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[gordonjahn]

Metro type lines being largely sterile and not featuring potential crash hazards such as road vehicles on level crossings etc.

Although there are a few crossings in the Tyne and Wear Metro system, they are also Metro vehicles that then gained a BR Class number (599) when they started to operate over NR routes. They have had accidents hitting cars on level crossings and they weren't catastrophic.

Do we really need to rehash these tired old arguments again which have already been done to death several times over? Some people have strong opinions about these units which they won’t change regardless of the evidence or counter arguments, I get it, but it gets tedious to read. Especially when we’re closer to having some real news to discuss.

I agree - we all get it - some folk don't like the re-use of these trains and have their reservations, but they are operating within a regulatory landscape that is what it is and isn't going to change because of a strongly worded post on a forum.

 

[D365]

Thank you for that. Bit disturbing that I’ll be at the very front of the things! But I don’t make a habit of hitting the blocks at Wrexham central so I’m not too worried. As long as they have good breaks I’m happy.

I'd be more worried about the fact that you are going to take an anecdote more seriously than the fact that Vivarail will have had to present substantial testing evidence to the RSSB in order to get their rolling stock certified. I don't think the "grandfather rights" argument will have been taken very seriously if they had tried that.

Some people have strong opinions about these units which they won’t change regardless of the evidence or counter arguments, I get it, but it gets tedious to read.

I'd be happy to read if there was substantial counter-evidence, but so far I have seen little other than speculation and slants pointed at those in charge. Nothing in the way of external sources.

 

[Non Multi]

That's Met line A-Stock! Every time I see A stock pictures, I'm reminded by how super comfy the seating was...

The D78s did however run alongside London Overground/Silverlink and SWT trains (diverted via Southfields) on the Richmond and Wimbledon branches of the District line.

 

[mallard]

Vivi wotsit staged some tests, having welded a few extra bits of metal in the cab, by rolling one slowly into a plank of wood and a balloon full of water which was supposed to show how safe they had made it, but was largely regarded at the time as not being a suitable test to prove it was up to modern standards.

No, they crashed it at around 36 km/h (22 mph) into a 3 tonne steel water tank supported on a wooden structure. The tank made full contact with the front of the train. The railway press and, importantly, the driver unions generally recieved the results positiviely (reported in the ASLEF journal, for example).

 

[D365]

That's Met line A-Stock! Every time I see A stock pictures, I'm reminded by how super comfy the seating was...

The best example of fast trains running on the same tracks as London Underground.

 

[Rail Blues]

It’s progress in getting those units out on the network and in service. I didn’t say it was progress for the railway as a whole, although if it can increase capacity on an already bursting-at-the-seams network bring it on I say.

I'd also say the capacity to swap the power rafts in minutes, using only a forklift and the ability to swap between a battery/diesel raft is really interesting, I'm interested to see how the technology works in service but I think the ideas are interesting. I think that is the significant part of the project, not the actual rolling stick they're attached to. I suspect other, bigger manufacturers will be the ultimate beneficiaries of the technology.

Nor do I think the charge that they're trying to pass off the trains as brand new made by a previous poster is altogether fair, they're pretty upfront about using D78s. It also seems daft to get upset about a marketing department trying to market the train in a competitive market place.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I'd also say the capacity to swap the power rafts in minutes, using only a forklift and the ability to swap between a battery/diesel raft is really interesting, I'm interested to see how the technology works in service but I think the ideas are interesting. I think that is the significant part of the project, not the actual rolling stick they're attached to. I suspect other, bigger manufacturers will be the ultimate beneficiaries of the technology.

Nor do I think the charge that they're trying to pass off the trains as brand new made by a previous poster is altogether fair, they're pretty upfront about using D78s. It also seems daft to get upset about a marketing department trying to market the train in a competitive market place.

The unqualified and unquantified use of terms such as "practically maintenance free" does risk credibility though. The proof will of course be in the successful deployment of their two hundred D78 vehicles across the network.

 

[D365]

Apologies if this is not new info, but I've finally found the presentation about the fleet plans, on the KeolisAmey web site:
http://www.keolisamey.cymru/media/1046/ams-wb-overview-presentation.pdf
The fleet details are at P15 et seq.

Class 230: 5x3-car, Chester/Wrexham.

Confirmation that the Class 230 units bound for the Borderlands line will be of the "Battery hybrid" type.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thank you for that. Bit disturbing that I’ll be at the very front of the things! But I don’t make a habit of hitting the blocks at Wrexham central so I’m not too worried. As long as they have good breaks I’m happy.

Should be decent, they will have both rheostatic and friction. How much of a tea break you will get depends on the timetable

 

[Bletchleyite]

Confirmation that the Class 230 units bound for the Borderlands line will be of the "Battery hybrid" type.

What does that entail? Diesel and battery? Or charging off the third rail at Bidston?

 

[sw1ller]

Should be decent, they will have both rheostatic and friction. How much of a tea break you will get depends on the timetable

Haha. Leave me alone, I’m rather hungover!

 

[Rail Blues]

The unqualified and unquantified use of terms such as "practically maintenance free" does risk credibility though. The proof will of course be in the successful deployment of their two hundred D78 vehicles across the network.

I don't think that getting every single unit they bought at scrap price into active service is in anyway a fair definition of success, your position is in my opinion something of a strawman.

If they manage to generate a return for their investors through a combination of getting class 230s on the network and the scrap value of the remainder, that to my mind is a success, doubly so if they use that technology in other builds either using existing or new stock.

 

[D365]

... doubly so if they use that technology in other builds either using existing or new stock.

Exactly this, the Borderlands line will be a good proving ground for the technology that they are in the process of developing.

 

[Dstock7080]

Being designed as a tube/metro unit the crash worthiness is nothing like that required for mainline stock - there is a photo somewhere of one having hit the buffers at low speed on the Underground and the damage is quite severe.

That unit 7100, the Richmond incident train, was repaired put back into service and ran with all other D Stock until the first withdrawal in 2015.
Now car 7100 is at VivaRail currently being refurbished for further service.

 

[Rail Blues]

Vivi wotsit staged some tests, having welded a few extra bits of metal in the cab, by rolling one slowly into a plank of wood and a balloon full of water which was supposed to show how safe they had made

I get that there are some good reasons to be sceptical about the 230 project, but you don't do yourself or your case any favours when you make up or massively misrepresent stuff like this.

 

[Z12XE]

I don't believe it remains their end goal to sell all of the D Stock coaches available. Especially since they were bought at scrap value, there is little need to recoup any initial costs.

I suspect it probably is, after all they are a business and Shooter in this case is a sales man.

 

[Rail Blues]

I suspect it probably is, after all they are a business and Shooter in this case is a sales man.

That's probably the dream scenario, but I don't think it is essential or the determinant of whether the project is a success.

 

[gazthomas]

That's probably the dream scenario, but I don't think it is essential or the determinant of whether the project is a success.

I can't imagine buying a job lot of old D stock then spending money on setting up a new business with development costs then only building a few production trains and scrapping the remainder would be consider a success. I suspect Vivarail are operating at a considerable loss at the moment and need to recoup these costs through significant sales

 

[pemma]

Confirmation that the Class 230 units bound for the Borderlands line will be of the "Battery hybrid" type.

Also shows a mockup which shows the refurbished interior will retain the LU seating.

 

[Z12XE]

I can't imagine buying a job lot of old D stock then spending money on setting up a new business with development costs then only building a few production trains and scrapping the remainder would be consider a success. I suspect Vivarail are operating at a considerable loss at the moment and need to recoup these costs through significant sales

Indeed, remember it was their goal to supply this whole fleet to Northern but that failed. They'll be wanting to to shift these to make their money back otherwise they might as well open the doors and take in old Allegros and Maxis for scrapping as well

 

[edwin_m]

What does that entail? Diesel and battery? Or charging off the third rail at Bidston?

Unlikely they'd get much charge at Bidston - they are only there for five minutes or so.

Indeed, remember it was their goal to supply this whole fleet to Northern but that failed. They'll be wanting to to shift these to make their money back otherwise they might as well open the doors and take in old Allegros and Maxis for scrapping as well

I thought the last extant Allegros and Maxis rusted into nothingness two or three decades ago...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also shows a mockup which shows the refurbished interior will retain the LU seating.

But with tables added on the facing bays. Indeed, looking at it, I think they are also increasing the number of facing bays, presumably by putting some original LU seating in from other units, e.g. the WMT ones where it is being replaced. On the LU layout I think there's only four per coach, the rest is longitudinal.

TBH, the LU layout would have been fine for the Marston Vale, probably also for Wrexham-Bidston. Facing bays with tables for long journeys, side-facing seating for shorter ones.

 

[sw1ller]

Unlikely they'd get much charge at Bidston - they are only there for five minutes or so.

A conservative estimate for a two car unit on battery power is 40 miles and needing 8 minutes to charge up. So 4 minutes at bidston and 4 minutes at Wrexham. It’s only 26 miles if I recall correctly so that’s plenty. They could even add in a new 3rd rail between Deeside parkway and Neston which, at current line speed, will be about 7 minutes. That won’t happen I know, for several reasons, but it could be a back up in case of delays and turn backs at shotton. (Bridge strikes can keep you stationary for hours sometimes, as can other incidents, I don’t know what the drain will be like on the batteries at times like this)

On a note about the batteries, it was reassuring to hear the design director say the batteries could be crushed or even pierced and they would be completely safe due to the type used.

 

[coppercapped]

A conservative estimate for a two car unit on battery power is 40 miles and needing 8 minutes to charge up. So 4 minutes at bidston and 4 minutes at Wrexham. It’s only 26 miles if I recall correctly so that’s plenty. They could even add in a new 3rd rail between Deeside parkway and Neston which, at current line speed, will be about 7 minutes. That won’t happen I know, for several reasons, but it could be a back up in case of delays and turn backs at shotton. (Bridge strikes can keep you stationary for hours sometimes, as can other incidents, I don’t know what the drain will be like on the batteries at times like this)

On a note about the batteries, it was reassuring to hear the design director say the batteries could be crushed or even pierced and they would be completely safe due to the type used.

As Shooter explained in the talk he gave to the Friends of the LT Museum a month or so ago, available on Youtube and there was a link to it earlier in this thread, unprotected ground level electrical conductors are not realistically permissible, as you implied. The Class 230 uses a conductor rail placed in the 4 ft for charging at termini. The train makes contact using a shoe, but the rail is only energised when it is proven that a train is over it - thus shielding the rail.

Vivarail is also building, or has built, a mobile battery charger which is effectively a lorry carrying a large battery and a diesel engine. In the case of a train held up somewhere this could be used to give an emergency boost if the train could reach a place which is accessible from a road, a level crossing or such like. Anyway, for routes where cases like this could occur there is no reason why a train could not be fitted with one diesel pack as a 'get you home' feature.

 

[100andthirty]

There are precedents for "third rail" operations even on the street where the conductor is only energised when the vehicle is proven over the conductor. It's the Alstom APS product: http://www.alstom.com/products-serv...tures/products/aps-ground-level-power-supply/. It is used inter alia in Bordeaux on their tram system.

One factor is that the conductor has to be proved de-energised before the tram exposes the conductor it has passed over and from which it has collected electricity.

My personal view is that the APS is a product of its time and the time for batteries and static charging has now arrived for tramways and the applications for the Vivarail products.

 

[furnessvale]

chorleyjeff said: ↑
"Would you have intended to use" ?
Why not use simple language such as "Did you intend to use?

From a similar aged old codger taught in school and professional life to use simply constructed short sentences."

Unfortunately, as my consultant would be pleased to inform you, my post-stroke cognitive thinking ability and the associated ability to express myself in more simplistic written terminology is not the same as it once was. My good lady wife, now aged 76, was somewhat startled after the stroke relieving operation in 2012 to hear how I expressed myself in speech but was pleased to see that I was still able to express my thoughts into speech, albeit somewhat differently than before.

I am sad to hear of your stroke and its after effects.

As a layman it does seem strange to me that this has had the effect of only allowing you to write in convoluted terms which, to be frank, at times make my eyes glaze over! I would have thought the opposite would have been the case, in that you could only express yourself in simple terms.

At least you ARE able to express yourself and contribute to the forum which is most welcome.

Edit: I appear to have mangled the quotes but have attempted to correct them.

 

[jimm]

Vivarail announcement about the order for Wales

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-announce-new-order-for-wales-and-borders/

Vivarail is delighted to announce that it has been chosen as preferred bidder to supply a fleet of Class 230 D-Trains to KeolisAmey for the Wales and Borders franchise. The trains will be the first to come into service as part of the new franchise and will demonstrate KeolisAmey’s commitment to providing new, high quality rolling stock to Welsh passengers.

Plus supporting video here

 

[mallard]

Interesting that they're keeping 4 doors per side for most vehicles. That suggests that they're concerned about dwell times, is the route really that busy?

Hopefully the doors all have individual open/close buttons (as is standard with mainline trains) otherwise that could get rather unpleasent in the winter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting that they're keeping 4 doors per side for most vehicles. That suggests that they're concerned about dwell times, is the route really that busy?

Or just that it's cheaper to reduce the number of modifications? Though I'm almost certain they are adding more facing bays over the LU layout, possibly using spare seating from other units - I don't *think* the most recent LU layout had two facing bays in adjacent areas, it was alternated.

The bike area looks a bit sub-optimal.

Hopefully the doors all have individual open/close buttons (as is standard with mainline trains) otherwise that could get rather unpleasent in the winter.

They do.

 

[mde]

The bike area looks a bit sub-optimal.

The bike area actually looks very poor - there didn't look to be any way to secure it, other than by holding on. It could, of course, just be an illustrative example rather than what's going to be delivered.

Incidentally, I didn't see a toilet in the render, hopefully that's just a glitch rather than an aspiration from Transport for Wales.