Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Bletchleyite]

They probably do but I'm not sure what difference that makes coupled to a genset rather than a hydraulic transmission.

It means the engine can run at optimum revs and you don't waste power heating up transmission fluid. They do appear to be quite quick off the mark - hopefully the timetable can be improved using this.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Yeah as posted below that post, straight 5s not V6s.

At 200hp per engine, that's plenty for a small DMU. That means 400hp per powered vehicle, of which the vehicles are only 18m in length. Even considering a 3-car with an unpowered centre trailer, that's 267hp per 18m vehicle, compared with for example a 156 which has 285hp per vehicle for 23m. Given that the D78s and therefore 230s are Aluminium, the power to weight ratio of even the 3-car is perfectly adequate. It won't compare that well to the performance of say, a 185, but it'll be plenty good enough considering the 60mph gearing.

I'm not really convinced about the longevity argument, engines transferred from the automotive industry haven't worked too well in the past and they have to work very hard in the 230s compared to their normal load. Most DMU engines operate sub-2000rpm all the time whereas these are clearly working at 3000rpm+, you can hear that from the testing footage. Component reliability, however, isn't necessarily what Vivarail are going for - more ease of maintenance. If there's redundant engines in use and replacing defective ones is far simpler than on regular DMUs, then it matters a lot less how long the individual engines last. What could potentially be an issue is that with the backlash against diesel engines in small vehicles, this particular engine may be discontinued far sooner than the Cummins / MTU engines used in bigger units. How maintenance will fare in 10 years' time is up for debate.

I have travelled in a Ranger many times seeing as my dad has one and i can tell you the 3.2 is a powerful beast but because of this is very loud. Although as you say it is very easy to work on. It is also very small and very light compared to a beastly MTU engine. And, seeing as thousands of Rangers are sold every year in the UK, there are plenty of engines knocking about.

 

[samuelmorris]

I have travelled in a Ranger many times seeing as my dad has one and i can tell you the 3.2 is a powerful beast but because of this is very loud. Although as you say it is very easy to work on. It is also very small and very light compared to a beastly MTU engine. And, seeing as thousands of Rangers are sold every year in the UK, there are plenty of engines knocking about.

Right now yes they're plentiful. The thought of WMT / KAW raiding a local scrapyard for spare engines later down the line though is a little bit concerning!

 

[Meerkat]

Why wouldn’t they use whatever Ford Rangers use at that future point?
By the time the engines start getting rare the 230s will surely be on a scrapheap

 

[Bletchleyite]

Right now yes they're plentiful. The thought of WMT / KAW raiding a local scrapyard for spare engines later down the line though is a little bit concerning!

With the modular approach used I'm sure fitting something else will be fairly trivial, in the same way as people fit all sorts of engines to Land Rovers.

 

[samuelmorris]

I wouldn't be so sure, the tolerances in those modules will probably be quite tight. Some of the infrastructure is fixed to the train - not all engines will be easily adapted to fit in that space.

 

[Meerkat]

The bonnet of a pick up truck is a fairly finite space. Can’t see the engines suddenly getting bigger.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Right now yes they're plentiful. The thought of WMT / KAW raiding a local scrapyard for spare engines later down the line though is a little bit concerning!

Why wouldn’t they use whatever Ford Rangers use at that future point?
By the time the engines start getting rare the 230s will surely be on a scrapheap

Seeing as i love pickups, I follow ford quite closely and they have stated when they announced their 2 litres 210 hp engine that their 3.2 will not be going anywhere anytime soon as it is a popular option with customers so it looks as though they won't be stopping production of it any time soon. Also, if they did stop the 3.2, couldn't they just slap in ford new 2.0 as it of course, smaller, more fuel efficient and is of course greener.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The bonnet of a pick up truck is a fairly finite space. Can’t see the engines suddenly getting bigger.

If anything the trend is for them to get smaller, but to gain the lost power back by using multiple turbo/superchargers and the likes.

Of course there's a distinct possibility that what you replace it with won't be an internal combustion engine but rather a battery pack.

 

[big all]

Right now yes they're plentiful. The thought of WMT / KAW raiding a local scrapyard for spare engines later down the line though is a little bit concerning!

they tend to make spares for ten years minimum after they stop production off an engine
so assuming they still make this engine then 12-15 years off spares minimal will be reasonable

 

[samuelmorris]

Seeing as i love pickups, I follow ford quite closely and they have stated when they announced their 2 litres 210 hp engine that their 3.2 will not be going anywhere anytime soon as it is a popular option with customers so it looks as though they won't be stopping production of it any time soon. Also, if they did stop the 3.2, couldn't they just slap in ford new 2.0 as it of course, smaller, more fuel efficient and is of course greener.

True but with factory workers having their hours reduced due to lack of demand, we'll see.

Just to be clear I'm not painting this as a major crisis, given the likely lifespan of the 230s (I'm anticipating something like 15 years as the long-term sprinter replacements will probably also see out the 230s and 769s) it probably won't be an issue, it was more a case of, this is something people might not have thought much about.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

True but with factory workers having their hours reduced due to lack of demand, we'll see.

Just to be clear I'm not painting this as a major crisis, given the likely lifespan of the 230s (I'm anticipating something like 15 years as the long-term sprinter replacements will probably also see out the 230s and 769s) it probably won't be an issue, it was more a case of, this is something people might not have thought much about.

I agree with you, eventually Ford WILL stop 3.2 production and an alternative SMALL engine will need to be found. Don't Cummins and MTU make an engine in the 3.2 litre 200hp ish range? According to MTU's website the smallest engine for rail cars they make is around 12.8 litre and 430 hp so obviously not suitable. Do they have to use rail specific engines, can't they just use a MTU construction engine or a cummins marine engine? How long does a DMU engine last before it need replacing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do they have to use rail specific engines

Clearly not, because the Ford engine is an automotive one!

 

[samuelmorris]

I agree with you, eventually Ford WILL stop 3.2 production and an alternative SMALL engine will need to be found. Don't Cummins and MTU make an engine in the 3.2 litre 200hp ish range? According to MTU's website the smallest engine for rail cars they make is around 12.8 litre and 430 hp so obviously not suitable. Do they have to use rail specific engines, can't they just use a MTU construction engine or a cummins marine engine? How long does a DMU engine last before it need replacing.

Cummins and MTU both make smaller engines down in that size bracket, but neither are designed for use in pick-ups, I believe they are used in industrial gensets and larger commercial vehicles (e.g. 7.5t rigid trucks). They are unlikely to be as small in footprint as the Ford engine Vivarail have used even if the actual engine displacement is similar (the small version of the Cummins B-series I believe is a 3.3). They are also not specified for rail use and the manufacturers may not be keen on making a rail version, they are also far lower power output, I believe around the 100-120hp mark.

The larger version of the B-series is used in pickups, e.g. the Dodge Ram, but that's considerably bigger than the Ranger. The 3.9l 4ISB used in Alexander Dennis buses for the last 15 years or so seems a possible contender, but will it fit in the existing rafts without extensive modifications? I've no idea.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Clearly not, because the Ford engine is an automotive one!

I should of been clearer. Do they have to use rail specific engine to get the same life out of it? Will this 200hp Ford engine last as long as a rail specific 200 hp engine? I don't think it will.

 

[anamyd]

It means the engine can run at optimum revs and you don't waste power heating up transmission fluid. They do appear to be quite quick off the mark - hopefully the timetable can be improved using this.

I think samuelmorris was referring to not needing a high torque (relative to horsepower) engine to power a generator as much as you would to deliver power to a hydraulic transmission And if they are quick off the mark then that makes sense!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I should of been clearer. Do they have to use rail specific engine to get the same life out of it? Will this 200hp Ford engine last as long as a rail specific 200 hp engine? I don't think it will.

That remains to be seen, though they really are only designed for a 15 year life or thereabouts anyway. And over the next 15-20 years most likely internal combustion engines will be deprecated anyway.

 

[DarloRich]

I spoke to soon - street word this morning is that the 230 has to go back to Long Marston for unspecified "mods". Hopefully another unit that has already had the "mods" will be swapped out but i doubt it!

 

[Neen Sollars]

I spoke to soon - street word this morning is that the 230 has to go back to Long Marston for unspecified "mods". Hopefully another unit that has already had the "mods" will be swapped out but i doubt it!

The delay in delivery of all three of the first 230 batch was officially announced at the end of October 2018. Unit 230003 has continued testing and driver training on the Marston Vale line since then. Whenever I see railway construction programmes on tv I have to admire the engineers ability to find solutions to seemingly impossible problems. They isolate the problem come up with a solution and implement it. I would think the problem with the 230 was known mid October, and guess a solution has now been found and unit 230003 will be swapped with 230004. Please keep us posted with any news/gossip.

 

[sw1ller]

Am I right in thinking that the engine will only rev at one continuous speed? Not like a 150 where you can hear it revving height the more power you select? The engines won’t be running at high revs, they’ll be set to run in the lower range to increase wear. The engines won’t be running continuously either, I remember reading that they will be quiet at stations so I assume there will be batteries on the diesel sets to get them going again and the ford engine will kick in once it’s moving.

Or have I got it wrong??

 

[samuelmorris]

Am I right in thinking that the engine will only rev at one continuous speed? Not like a 150 where you can hear it revving height the more power you select? The engines won’t be running at high revs, they’ll be set to run in the lower range to increase wear. The engines won’t be running continuously either, I remember reading that they will be quiet at stations so I assume there will be batteries on the diesel sets to get them going again and the ford engine will kick in once it’s moving.

Or have I got it wrong??

I've seen no evidence of start-stop operation yet other than when changing ends which is as you might expect. From the tests I've seen, at fairly modest acceleration rates the engine speed sounds about 3000rpm, which is exactly where the peak power output of that particular engine is - see http://www.powerstrokehub.com/3.2-power-stroke.html

 

[Bletchleyite]

Am I right in thinking that the engine will only rev at one continuous speed? Not like a 150 where you can hear it revving height the more power you select? The engines won’t be running at high revs, they’ll be set to run in the lower range to increase wear. The engines won’t be running continuously either, I remember reading that they will be quiet at stations so I assume there will be batteries on the diesel sets to get them going again and the ford engine will kick in once it’s moving.

Or have I got it wrong??

Yes, these first units are simple DEMUs not battery hybrids. The engines will rev in a similar way to other DEMUs like Voyagers.

I believe the second batch for Wales may be more like you describe with the engines charging the batteries in the manner the engine on a Parry People Mover charges the flywheel, though I might be wrong.

(Single car version for Stourbridge, anyone? Surely the rubber band can't have all that much life left in it...)

 

[krus_aragon]

Going from memories of press releases and discussions here, TfW's 230s (at least) will have batteries for peak demand (moving off) and regenerative braking, similar to a hybrid car. I don't recall any intention for the diesel to switch off entirely at each station.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Taken from the Vivarail announcement...

"As the UK’s leading battery train manufacturer we know that emission-free trains are the future and we will continue to spearhead that development. With this hybrid fleet we will deliver a train that is clean, green and reliable making use of GPS systems to cut out the engines in stations and environmentally-sensitive areas."

So looks like they will cut oit

 

[krus_aragon]

Taken from the Vivarail announcement...

"As the UK’s leading battery train manufacturer we know that emission-free trains are the future and we will continue to spearhead that development. With this hybrid fleet we will deliver a train that is clean, green and reliable making use of GPS systems to cut out the engines in stations and environmentally-sensitive areas."

So looks like they will cut oit

And there speaketh the person who references published material instead of going by memory!

 

[Neen Sollars]

More testing/training of Class 230 on Marston Vale Line end 2018. Thanks to UbleyHalt for posting. A few factual errors but a great shot of 230003 at speed through Woburn Sands. Thats more like it.

 

[D365]

In essence the battery/diesel hybrid will operate like a Prius. Battery for city/station operation with the diesels functioning as a "range extender".

 

[Bletchleyite]

In essence the battery/diesel hybrid will operate like a Prius. Battery for city/station operation with the diesels functioning as a "range extender".

Yes, that's a reasonable comparison. It does need to be noted though that 230003-005 for LNR are not hybrids, they are simple DEMUs. Not to say that they won't be converted later if it makes sense - it could well allow a further improved timetable if EMU like acceleration was an option.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Yes, that's a reasonable comparison. It does need to be noted though that 230003-005 for LNR are not hybrids, they are simple DEMUs. Not to say that they won't be converted later if it makes sense - it could well allow a further improved timetable if EMU like acceleration was an option.

When you say LNR? Do you mean Transport for Wales? As Wikipedia says that the Hybrid units are going to Transport for Wales (5 units with the numbers currently unknown) Vivarail are keeping the Battery train aren’t they?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When you say LNR? Do you mean Transport for Wales? As Wikipedia says that the Hybrid units are going to Transport for Wales (5 units with the numbers currently unknown) Vivarail are keeping the Battery train aren’t they?

No, I mean London Northwestern Railway. TfW are getting the hybrids. No pure battery units are presently on order.