Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Clip]

Only, of course, if some horses could be found that are no longer required in the South. Do they still have the donkeys at Greenwich Park? - they could send them North after they retire

Not that I have seen. But what is wrong with the donkeys you already have at Blackpool?

That's the trouble in the north* always wanting new donkeys


* I should've said North West

 

[Wolfie]

Only, of course, if some horses could be found that are no longer required in the South. Do they still have the donkeys at Greenwich Park? - they could send them North after they retire

Not that I have seen. But what is wrong with the donkeys you already have at Blackpool?

That's the trouble in the north* always wanting new donkeys


* I should've said North West

...and of course, in the spirit of eco-friendliness, the Pacers could be converted into stables... win-win

 

[D60]

On the subject of donkeys, it is of course "donkeys of the nodding variety" and their elimination from the rail network that brings about the proposal that is the subject of this thread!
So yes, enough of these particular worn-out "donkeys" in Blackpool! Although whether, as previously discussed here, 60mph D78s would be suitable as replacements on the busy route from Preston to Kirkham once electrified, is definitely a moot point, since all services on both Blackpool routes run through to Preston and beyond. And please, while we're at it, let's not be hearing talk of "converting" (downgrading) the South Fylde Line to an extension of the Blackpool tramway, or replacement of our hourly through trains with a B'pl Sth to Kirkham shuttle as in the dark days of the 70s and early 80s.. Thanks!

And on the subject of redundant "nodding donkeys" as donkey stables...
Interestly, the former site of Blackpool Central MPD for many years provided the council-owned housing for Blackpool's actual fleet of donkeys, until cleared for redevelopment for housing (for actual humans!)
So yes, maybe a few grounded nodding donkeys as donkey stables.. maybe on the nearby site of Bloomfield Road carriage sidings... (not saying anything about any other "donkeys" in the vicinity of Bloomfield Road..!)

(Hi everyone, first post... And I haven't worked out yet how to include quotes etc..!)

From (not so sunny today) "Lytham St Annes"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let none of us forget the "donkeys" who are stabled at the DfT..

 

[northwichcat]

Let none of us forget the "donkeys" who are stabled at the DfT..

So that's why they can't have Pacers in London. It wouldn't be civilised for donkeys to ride donkeys to get to/from work.

 

[JaJaWa]

BBC Look North are going to be at Vivarail’s D-stock conversion depot this evening

https://twitter.com/spencerstokestv/status/568455050672132096

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

BBC Look North are going to be at Vivarail’s D-stock conversion depot this evening

https://twitter.com/spencerstokestv/status/568455050672132096

Oh..how exciting. This will be the same BBC who are notorious for using stock images of any type of unit in their programmes...

 

[asylumxl]

BBC Look North are going to be at Vivarail’s D-stock conversion depot this evening

https://twitter.com/spencerstokestv/status/568455050672132096

The usual comments about how what's not good enough for Southerners is thought to be good enough for the north.

Seems they don't realise that 313s (all down south) are older.

 

[stevefromdonny]

Little was made of the fact these trains should be a stop gap until electrification. Its like bbc look north want people to be unsupportive of this venture. Even though the only old thing about them will be the chassis. They'll be a damn sight better than pacers.

 

[3141]

Little was made of the fact these trains should be a stop gap until electrification. Its like bbc look north want people to be unsupportive of this venture. Even though the only old thing about them will be the chassis. They'll be a damn sight better than pacers.

Reporters generally want to an angle on a news item. That frequently means taking sides, and though they may include more than one point of view the way it's all presented makes clear which view is favoured.

 

[davyp]

North West Tonight had a short piece on the subject this evening. It did end with a brief comment that they would be useful to fill a three year ago while we wait for the new electrics. However, the usual antagonistic journalism from BBC North West Tonight.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However, the usual antagonistic journalism from BBC North West Tonight.

That will depend upon the personal point of view that you had formulated about those units before watching the programme.

Some may feel it would be a good idea to reveal to the watching audience, the vast majority of which will not have the same in-depth knowledge of forum members, that these units are older than the Pacers.

"Second-hand rose syndrome" needs revealing to all and sundry.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there going to be enough of the ex D-stock to allow all Pacers and 153s to be moved elsewhere or withdrawn (probably 153s refurbished, and permanently coupled into pairs - with a disabled bog on on car)?

 

[james2trains]

Is there going to be enough of the ex D-stock to allow all Pacers and 153s to be moved elsewhere or withdrawn (probably 153s refurbished, and permanently coupled into pairs - with a disabled bog on on car)?

According to Vivarail's website, only some of the 3 car units will have a toilet.

http://www.vivarail.co.uk/trains-town-country/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

According to Vivarail's website, only some of the 3 car units will have a toilet.

http://www.vivarail.co.uk/trains-town-country/

Gets worse by the minute..

 

[asylumxl]

Gets worse by the minute..

I think toilets on ex-LU trains is quite impressive.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Surely as well as any other modifications, they'd need the current emergency access between carriages replaced with a safe gangway?

What about a sheet of vacuum formed yellow acrylic, some rubber and four flappy bits to cover the joins? Might work.

 

[Bantamzen]

The usual comments about how what's not good enough for Southerners is thought to be good enough for the north.

Seems they don't realise that 313s (all down south) are older.

But at least the 313s are quicker. And they are not being plugged by some as a cheap new solution to replace a 30 year old cheap new solution. The cat it seems is out of the bag, the ex-LU stock isn't going to be able to become mutton dressed as lamb and fool those simple Northerners into believing that they are super shiny new trains. Who knew....?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think toilets on ex-LU trains is quite impressive.

Any toilet on any train is impressive if you are "desperate to go"..

 

[Buttsy]

Of course, toilets are one thing the Pacers don't lack.

I don't think there's any stock in the north that doesn't have a loo apart from the 507s & 508s (I'm happy to be corrected). Be thankful that you don't have 378s, 313s, 455s, 315s and all LU stock to cross your legs in on your journeys currently...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Of course, toilets are one thing the Pacers don't lack.

I don't think there's any stock in the north that doesn't have a loo apart from the 507s & 508s (I'm happy to be corrected). Be thankful that you don't have 378s, 313s, 455s, 315s and all LU stock to cross your legs in on your journeys currently...

BR Class 994.

 

[158756]

Just seen the BBC report.
Apparently they'll be used for '2 or 3 years or until the lines are electrified'
2/3 years fine, but 20-40 years until lines are electrified, erm... haven't we already had one long-lived poor quality cheap solution.

Have these trains actually been withdrawn from service on the District line yet? I thought they were meant to stay until later this year/next year?

 

[Domh245]

I honestly don't get it. People on this forum seem to be angry at the thought of more carriages coming to help relieve overcrowding through a series of cascades. They aren't replacing pacers like for like, they are replacing pacers on certain lines so that these displaced pacers can be sent to strengthen diagrams where people are getting left behind on the platform

Yes, these carriages are 'cast offs' from the south because 'they get all the investment and we don't get any up here etc etc' but I'm sure that most people (ie commuters, not union members and enthusiasts) would rather be on train of some kind going somewhere rather than sitting on a platform waiting for the next one because the last one was too full. I would say that we'd happily keep them on the district line to supplement the new S stock, but there is not enough room to store all the trains with a lot of the S stock still to be delivered, and that when the SSL *eventually* gets resignalled and the S stock goes over to ATO, they'd have to go anyway, as they'd be too slow and couldn't be converted to ATO anyway!

Oh well, I suppose we'll just have to make do for another 5 years, letting 2 or 3 trains go most mornings because you physically can't get past the treadplate!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have these trains actually been withdrawn from service on the District line yet? I thought they were meant to stay until later this year/next year?

Not all of them, only 4x 6 car trains have been withdrawn, the bulk of the "mainline" services are still D stock operated. Only the Wimbledon - Edgware Road service is fully S stock (+ the circle/hammersmith & city/metropolitan).

 

[Nym]

Have these trains actually been withdrawn from service on the District line yet? I thought they were meant to stay until later this year/next year?

They are in the process of being withdrawn...

 

[Andyh82]

Just seen the BBC report.
Apparently they'll be used for '2 or 3 years or until the lines are electrified'
2/3 years fine, but 20-40 years until lines are electrified, erm... haven't we already had one long-lived poor quality cheap solution?

Indeed. The reporter said that lines in Yorkshire had started being electrified and these would be a stop gap. Unless he had been listening too much to David Cameron, we know lines in Yorkshire haven't started being electrified and won't be for many years, and won't be up and running for many years after that.

If they really do spend 750k on each carriage, I doubt they would be withdrawn after a few years either. It would exclude Northern from any possible new train orders for another few decades.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I cannot see Vivarail just accepting the fact that has been quoted upon the thread of a short-term lease to the Northern Rail franchise of just 2-3 years. I would appreciate a posting from anyone on this thread to fully explain that stated time period in respect of the suggested use of this rolling stock.

Which other TOC would Vivarail also approach?

 

[Bantamzen]

I honestly don't get it. People on this forum seem to be angry at the thought of more carriages coming to help relieve overcrowding through a series of cascades. They aren't replacing pacers like for like, they are replacing pacers on certain lines so that these displaced pacers can be sent to strengthen diagrams where people are getting left behind on the platform

Yes, these carriages are 'cast offs' from the south because 'they get all the investment and we don't get any up here etc etc' but I'm sure that most people (ie commuters, not union members and enthusiasts) would rather be on train of some kind going somewhere rather than sitting on a platform waiting for the next one because the last one was too full. I would say that we'd happily keep them on the district line to supplement the new S stock, but there is not enough room to store all the trains with a lot of the S stock still to be delivered, and that when the SSL *eventually* gets resignalled and the S stock goes over to ATO, they'd have to go anyway, as they'd be too slow and couldn't be converted to ATO anyway!

For me there are two objections to the D78s. Firstly, although these might be suitable for some slower routes used in isolation, that's just not how the Northern franchise works it's DMUs. My worry is that these slower units will eventually end up working routes that require faster running, and so won't be able to keep up with the current timetables. As someone who used to regularly be delayed because the stock running the route couldn't keep up to the actual timetable (in this case 75mph DMUs running on 90mph EMU timetables) I know how frustrating it can become, especially if your service is held up further to allow fasts past which normally wouldn't be a problem. People have said that it won't happen, but I'd stake a few quid on it most certainly happening more & more often.

My second objection is a lot more cynical. These units are supposed to be a cheap alternative, and a short term solution. My worry is that future governments will use the D78s as an excuse to cut back on investment in the North. "Oh they've had 78 "new" trains delivered, we can cut back on electrification projects and any future train orders". So a 2,3,5 or even 10 year stopgap will quickly become a 20-30 year one. And as I've said earlier, we've already had 20-30 years of a cheap stopgap. So it's time to properly invest, not cheap out again.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How much difference in cost is there between these and either a Turbostar or a Desiro (DMU) assuming that an engine that meets the emissions regs is fitted (for many lines would be engines in the 185 be overkill?)?

 

[ajdunlop]

That was my thought SpacePhoenix. Electrification and IEP are going to free up lots of loco hauled stock, midland main line and Southampton northward freight core electrification will free up lots of Voyagers and Northern Hub will free up lots of 185s. None of these seem terribly suited to the Northern metro stopping services. I suppose some of these could go to the SWT Devon route freeing up 158 and 159s and the Carlisle route could use some of the more long distance trains, and other similar moves could help things. It just feels like we will get 10+ years down the line and be wishing we had bought some suitable diesels rather than coming up with a temporary solution that itself was not very cheap. Especially if the electrification dates continue to slip.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Maybe people should reserve judgement until we actually see how these D trains perform. In this day and age it would seem sensible to me to look at ways of re-using and re-engineering old trains, why wouldn't you try if it was a lot cheaper and you ended up with something useful? I do agree that a top speed of 60mph sounds a bit slow, why can't they be re-engineered to go faster?