Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Harpers Tate]

Those sound like figures you've just plucked out of thin air

These numbers are made up. I don't know what they really are.....

I am trying (and evidently failing) to illustrate why top speed alone isn't sufficient a basis on which to make a judgement. Yet you appear to persist with this fallacy.

So in what is probably a forlorn attempt to get this over:

Suppose we have two parallel, unencumbered bits of track, and we place
- on one, train A which (let's suppose) has a good acceleration curve (because it has electric transmission) and a top speed of 60mph. Let's suppose it also has good braking characteristics because it has a lot of braked wheels.
- on the other, train B which (let's suppose) has a worse acceleration curve due to it having a lossy torque converter transmission and a top speed of 75mph. Let's suppose it has less effective braking characteristics than train A because it has fewer braked wheels.

We set them off both together, to race between two points; stop to stop.

It ought to be clear that
-1- at first, train A will be ahead.
-2- at some further point, train B will overtake train A - unless the distance is sufficiently short that there isn't time for it to do so before event 3 begins
-3- at some further point, train B will begin to brake for a stop
-4- if train B is ahead of train A, then again depending on distance, there is the potential that train A may be able to overtake B again before....
-5- at some further point, train B begins to brake for a stop.

In a different situation, with the same two trains on the same track (B after A), Train B will only be restricted by train A's slower top speed IF the "unless" in point 2 arises.

There is a calculation to be done here that will determine what distance of unencumbered running is required to ensure that train A will in fact take longer than train B. That calculation involves every factor that contributes to a train journey; doors, people on and off; acceleration, top speed, braking distance; all of it.

I'll repeat - I don't know all of the characteristics of D-Trains vs. Pacers (etc). I said that at the outset. I'll say it again. As far as the evidence of this thread is concerned, nobody does.

Until we all know how these characteristics compare it is completely flawed to judge it on top speed alone and therefore to assume that there is a real issue on any given bit of track whether it's a Main Line or not.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Good idea JCC on putting it on Youtube.

On another note...
My Rail magazine issue 768 refers to these D-Trains not as DMUs or DEMUs but as Independently Powered Electric Multiple Units (IPEMUs).
Is that the correct term? I haven't seen that before.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Anyone fancy separating this thread into 1 page of actual announcements/facts and 57 pages of speculation?

I think all we actually know for sure is:
Vivarail have done a deal to buy some D78 cars from London.
They've got designs for what might be possible with them with a new diesel power pack and other work.
Computer modelling says they wouldn't necessarily lose time on at least one route.
They're converting a prototype on site at Long Marston, but have only just started (as filmed by BBC Look North the other day).
The project leader says various bidders for the Northern franchise are interested.

 

[MarkyT]

Good idea JCC on putting it on Youtube.

On another note...
My Rail magazine issue 768 refers to these D-Trains not as DMUs or DEMUs but as Independently Powered Electric Multiple Units (IPEMUs).
Is that the correct term? I haven't seen that before.

It's a relatively new term, usually applying to standard electric units equipped with additional traction batteries for excursions beyond the wires, e.g:

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...-electric-trains-batteries-included-1e44.aspx

Interpreting the phrase literally though, it could mean any electrically motivated train fitted with any form of on board power storage or generation system for use 'off grid', perhaps all or only part of the time, and perhaps also fitted with power pick-up facilities for use under the wires or over the 3rd/4th rail as appropriate . . . or not.

The Hitachi cl.800 Super Express might also be described as IPEMUs, as could cl. 220/221/222.

 

[The Ham]

One thing that may have been overlooked (especially by those who are only focusing on the fact that they feel the D78's will be used solely by Northern) is that between now (well whenever they come into service) and 2020 the D78's will be extra sets over and above what there would be otherwise.

This could mean that there is more seats available for passengers which is what a lot of people want, probably more so than want brand new trains.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyone fancy separating this thread into 1 page of actual announcements/facts and 57 pages of speculation?

I think all we actually know for sure is:
Vivarail have done a deal to buy some D78 cars from London.
They've got designs for what might be possible with them with a new diesel power pack and other work.
Computer modelling says they wouldn't necessarily lose time on at least one route.
They're converting a prototype on site at Long Marston, but have only just started (as filmed by BBC Look North the other day).
The project leader says various bidders for the Northern franchise are interested.

You appear to have overlooked the question of "will they be fitted with toilets that meet the requirements of the Equalities Act", as this seems to be the problem with the Class 142 Pacers.

 

[edwin_m]

They showed a man undoing a bolt too ! I may have been mistaken but the guy being interviewed mentioned new traction gear which isn't what I understood to be happening

According to the Modern Railways article, it will be new traction electronics to replace the existing electromechanical control, but driving the existing DC traction motors.

 

[Bantamzen]

For those that missed the BBC "Look North" news report on Vivarail's plans, I put it on YouTube, as apparently iPlayer says that it will be taken down this evening. It includes an interview with Adrian Shooter. I've put subtitles on it. He mentioned them running to Penistone, Harrogate, Scarborough and Bridlington.

[youtube]BdVyZUS3Wpc[/youtube]

Thanks for uploading that, it was very interesting and should dispel any doubts on here that there's a good chance these things if built would end up at Northern. One particular thing the bloke from Vivarail said stood out for me. "They will be the best new trains on the network". Really? That's not a good sign if they are already overselling the D78s. How could you possibly consider a unit restricted to a maximum of 60/62mph (and that assumes that they even get that far), with a rather basic interior done for the third of the price of a brand new vehicle to be the best?. Pardon me for saying this, but I smell a bit of Billy BS here. They might be able to convince DfT, they may even be able to convince the Northern franchise bidders, but on this form it'll take a lot more to convince me or many Northern punters.

 

[WatcherZero]

Anyone noticed Vivarail in the last couple of weeks have stopped referring to them as a third the cost of new trains and are now calling them a third cheaper instead? Greater understanding of the costs involved and possibly related to now saying refurbishment is an optional extra when originally they said it was as standard?

 

[matt_world2004]

2 million for a new train carriage seems awfully cheap aren't they more like 20 million.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One thing that may have been overlooked (especially by those who are only focusing on the fact that they feel the D78's will be used solely by Northern) is that between now (well whenever they come into service) and 2020 the D78's will be extra sets over and above what there would be otherwise.

This could mean that there is more seats available for passengers which is what a lot of people want, probably more so than want brand new trains.

More seats in third-rate refreshed elderly rail units with no answer from the company concerned about the type of which diesel engines which will feature and the lack of full details of how they propose to deal with the matter of the toilets required by the strictures of the Equalities Act being the answer to all the current rail problems?

You may very well think that, but I couldn't possibly comment,,

 

[notadriver]

Can I just say at present D stock units were never allowed to officially exceed 45 mph (district line line speed). I recall their ride at speed being quite bouncy (could it be down to the track?). Also their gearing means good acceleration but above 40 mph they are painfully slow and that's on electric power. Will they be regeared or is something else being done to make them faster?

 

[eastwestdivide]

You appear to have overlooked the question of "will they be fitted with toilets that meet the requirements of the Equalities Act", as this seems to be the problem with the Class 142 Pacers.

No, I've not overlooked that question, as I was trying to list what we actually know for sure.

 

[47802]

Anyone noticed Vivarail in the last couple of weeks have stopped referring to them as a third the cost of new trains and are now calling them a third cheaper instead? Greater understanding of the costs involved and possibly related to now saying refurbishment is an optional extra when originally they said it was as standard?

Interesting there's a lot of difference between 1/3 the cost and 2/3 the cost at 2/3 the cost you might as well buy new I would have thought.

Plus at 2/3 the cost you would be looking to get a significant number of years usage out of them, plus the idea that they would be the best new trains on the network so that means they would be better than an Air Con 172 or the new electric trains that are on order I don't think so, he came across as a dodgy second hand car salesman, or in this case a dodgy second hand train salesman

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting there's a lot of difference between 1/3 the cost and 2/3 the cost at 2/3 the cost you might as well buy new I would have thought.

Plus at 2/3 the cost you would be looking to get a significant number of years usage out of them, plus the idea that they would be the best new trains on the network so that means they would be better than an Air Con 172 or the new electric trains that are on order I don't think so, he came across as a dodgy second hand car salesman, or in this case a dodgy second hand train salesman

It could be that Vivarail can buy and convert a D78 at 1/3 the cost of getting an equivalent new train. They (or whichever company handles the leasing) could then lease it to a TOC at 2/3 the annual leasing charge of the new train. This doesn't mean they are making super-profits, the leasing company would have to recover a lower cost but over a shorter remaining lifetime.

 

[The Ham]

One location in the SE which could be a suitable route is the Greenford Branch. Self contained, short (i.e. toilets wouldn't be needed) and potentially (if there is enough space for a train which is 9m longer than the current 165's) with the use of a 3 coach set wouldn't be much different in capacity than at present (dependent on seating layouts).

Does anyone have a use for a spare 165 or two? [Has hand bitten off]. Although given the lack of interest from the North for the D78's to provide extra units (even if they were only used on suitable routes) there'll probably be no interest from there for a 165.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It could be that Vivarail can buy and convert a D78 at 1/3 the cost of getting an equivalent new train. They (or whichever company handles the leasing) could then lease it to a TOC at 2/3 the annual leasing charge of the new train. This doesn't mean they are making super-profits, the leasing company would have to recover a lower cost but over a shorter remaining lifetime.

Would this example that you quote above be what one would expect from a Private Equity company in such a matter?

 

[northwichcat]

It could be that Vivarail can buy and convert a D78 at 1/3 the cost of getting an equivalent new train. They (or whichever company handles the leasing) could then lease it to a TOC at 2/3 the annual leasing charge of the new train. This doesn't mean they are making super-profits, the leasing company would have to recover a lower cost but over a shorter remaining lifetime.

As future rail franchises will generally be around 7-8 years with the option of a 2 year extension and Vivarail have quite publicly said the build cost will be 1/3 of what a new DMU costs, I wonder if franchise bidders may propose actually buying the trains as franchise assets. It would cost more in the short term but less in the long term and there is the potential to make a saving within a single franchise, which obviously isn't the case for a new DMU - 10 years of leasing costs would be much less than the cost of buying the trains.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think bidders will probably leave it open, not committing to one particular solution until both the Pacer and D78 refurb prototypes are finished and can be evaluated.

 

[route:oxford]

Apparently there are "robust" conversations ongoing at Transport Scotland.

As many contributors will be aware, stock availability is going to hit crisis point in Scotland in the very near future as a consquence of the end of lease of some of their 170 stock.

Abelio are already pre-apologising in the Scottish press for the predicted short-forming of services on the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Dunblane/Alloa routes.

Essentially, there are two factions.

Those who see the refurbished D78 units as having potential for releasing units from the far North line and Kyle line and other low-speed services.

Those who abhor the thought of "London's cast-offs" being used in Scotland and would rather votres in Central Scotaldn facing cancelled services.

This is going to be interesting.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Those who see the refurbished D78 units as having potential for releasing units from the far North line and Kyle line and other low-speed services

This is going to be interesting.

Can you imagine D78's on the Far North line without toilet facilities?

 

[47802]

Apparently there are "robust" conversations ongoing at Transport Scotland.

As many contributors will be aware, stock availability is going to hit crisis point in Scotland in the very near future as a consquence of the end of lease of some of their 170 stock.

Abelio are already pre-apologising in the Scottish press for the predicted short-forming of services on the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Dunblane/Alloa routes.

Essentially, there are two factions.

Those who see the refurbished D78 units as having potential for releasing units from the far North line and Kyle line and other low-speed services.

Those who abhor the thought of "London's cast-offs" being used in Scotland and would rather votres in Central Scotaldn facing cancelled services.

This is going to be interesting.

Oh yeh i'm sure replacing 158's with London tube train on a 4 hour journey will go down well

 

[route:oxford]

Can you imagine D78's on the Far North line without toilet facilities?

http://www.vivarail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Modern-Railways-Dec-2014.pdf

Well, as we can see from the image on the VivaRail website a universal lavatory is installed, so it would be just like imagining any stock where the toilet facilities were out of order.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh yeh i'm sure replacing 158's with London tube train on a 4 hour journey will down well

Depends on the layout I suppose. All table seating with picture windows isn't usually unpopular with rail fans.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.vivarail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Modern-Railways-Dec-2014.pdf

Well, as we can see from the image on the VivaRail website a universal lavatory is installed.

Are there clearer visual images available of the "universal" lavatory to which you allude which show the type of door access and the internal fitments?

 

[Suraggu]

Perhaps a locomotive and 4x Mk.2 coaches including a DBSO for the Far north line. In the summer months and in the winter months used as crowd busters along the Fife circle.

 

[route:oxford]

Are there clearer visual images available of the "universal" lavatory to which you allude which show the type of door access and the internal fitments?

As far as I can see from the image (there is a zoom function)...

There is an indoor WC which also has a door. The door is of a curved sliding variety thus permitting ingress/egress and offering privay.

Within WC area there is also a lavatory pan with a traditional cruved lid/seat. The angle and resolution doesn't permit viewing of the particular brand of sanitaryware nor the type of sink or hand drier.

Let's hope it's not one of those manky dyson ones which you have to stick your hands in that are full of hair and manky stuff at the bottom.

 

[deltic08]

Can you imagine D78's on the Far North line without toilet facilities?

Can you imagine D78s on the Far North line with toilet facilities? Why do we have to cheapen and reduce standards of our trains all the time?

 

[edwin_m]

Are there clearer visual images available of the "universal" lavatory to which you allude which show the type of door access and the internal fitments?

If a toilet is being fitted at all then the rules require it to meet all the accessibility standards, so unless Vivarail are unusually incompetent that is what will have been designed.

 

[D60]

The Vivarail website clearly indicates that the toilet module that is available for installation in the trailer car of a 3-car set will be fully compliant with the relevant PRM-TSI standards allowing operation beyond 2020.. so I'm not sure why we are being asked to imagine something otherwise..!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Can you imagine D78's on the Far North line without toilet facilities?

Are you stating as fact that D78s will not have a toilet ?.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Apparently there are "robust" conversations ongoing at Transport Scotland.

As many contributors will be aware, stock availability is going to hit crisis point in Scotland in the very near future as a consquence of the end of lease of some of their 170 stock.

Abelio are already pre-apologising in the Scottish press for the predicted short-forming of services on the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Dunblane/Alloa routes.

Essentially, there are two factions.

Those who see the refurbished D78 units as having potential for releasing units from the far North line and Kyle line and other low-speed services.

Those who abhor the thought of "London's cast-offs" being used in Scotland and would rather votres in Central Scotaldn facing cancelled services.

This is going to be interesting.

After wading through hundreds of posts I find something new. That's quite thought provoking - thanks.