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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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Xenophon PCDGS

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Indeed not, but by the closing of lines (even those not run by pacers) there would have been the need for less DMU's which would have meant that pacers could have been withdrawn. Likewise if existing services would also have less passengers then, either by shorter trains or less frequent services, there could be other DMU's freed up.

Whether or not there was an actual plan (probably more a hope that they wouldn't be needed due to railway decline) isn't the point, the point is that the railway is in a very different place now than it was then.

May I ask you to use your not-inconsiderable railway knowledge to make a posting that will be informative to the younger members of the website in relation to exactly which parts of the 1982 Serpell Report were actually carried out.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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May I ask you to use your not-inconsiderable railway knowledge to make a posting that will be informative to the younger members of the website in relation to exactly which parts of the 1982 Serpell Report were actually carried out.

The only passenger closures I can think of post-1982 are Clayton West, and somewhere near Glasgow (Kilmalcolm?). I'm pretty sure the former was not directly down to the report, not sure about the latter.
I'm possibly among the group you highlight, though being the same age as the Serpell Report it's been a while since I've been described as "young"!
 

D60

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Paul asks above, which parts of the Serpell Report were carried out..?

The Report brought into very sharp focus a picture of a railway in long-term decline, with falling revenues and rising costs.. and one of the options put forward was closure of 84% of the network..

So this was the political environment of the day.. with a demonstrable need for BR to show that it could cut costs.. or face a severe pruning of the network... So it is very easy to conclude that Pacers are an enduring legacy of the political climate of the day..

1982 was a low point.. and as the 80s progressed, passenger numbers and revenues started to recover, and the beginnings of the change of climate was marked by the reversal of the S&C closure decision...

And it is the unprecedented and unforeseen growth in passenger numbers in recent years that has kept Pacers in service way beyond their expected 'use-by' date..

So yes, the political climate of today is (supposedly) very different (in this pre-election phase of the electoral cycle..) to the dark days of the early 80s whence Pacers were conceived... but as Wolfie, above, so wisely observes, "don't count your chickens"..!

(Is any of this still relevant to the subject of the thread..? Or are we just being led down a pointlessly pedantic blind alley..?)
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Not sure when work will start but they expect to start electric services on GOBLIN in mid-2017. They have the option of keeping the 172s until late 2018 if there are delays in the wiring or in the delivery of EMUs.

Work is supposed to start in Dec 2015, presuming GRIP 3 is achieved this month.
For its length it is one of the most complex wiring projects in CP5.
Milestone update supposedly in a couple of weeks.
 

najaB

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Is any of this still relevant to the subject of the thread..? Or are we just being led down a pointlessly pedantic blind alley..?
I think the thread headed down that alley about a thousand posts ago!
 

Techniquest

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I sure learnt something from D60's post though, I can't say I knew 84% of the network was in jeopardy of being closed in the 80s!
 

Hophead

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Work is supposed to start in Dec 2015, presuming GRIP 3 is achieved this month.
For its length it is one of the most complex wiring projects in CP5.
Milestone update supposedly in a couple of weeks.

A couple of bridges are already being worked on.
 

The Ham

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May I ask you to use your not-inconsiderable railway knowledge to make a posting that will be informative to the younger members of the website in relation to exactly which parts of the 1982 Serpell Report were actually carried out.

I did not make reference to the 1982 Serpell Report. The point I was making was that at present the opposite types of reports are being written (i.e. lines being reopened). Which makes little difference to whether or not an closures came about from such a report (in the same way that only a few of the re-openings are likely to come about any time soon) it is more to do with the mindset around the railways at the time and where the prevailing thinking of the future of the railways is heading.
 

Techniquest

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3270:2113212 said:
I sure learnt something from D60's post though, I can't say I knew 84% of the network was in jeopardy of being closed in the 80s!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpell_Report

Have a look at the 'Option A' map on page 69 of the actual report to see what closing 84% of the network would have looked like...
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Serpell001.pdf

I can't get the second link to actually do anything yet (on the app reading this), but a very quick skim through the Wiki page (only quick due to low battery) showed it would have been awful today had it been put into place! Hopefully there'll be time tomorrow to read more of this lot. Thanks for the links :)
 

najaB

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I can't get the second link to actually do anything yet...
It's also linked at the bottom of the Wikipedia article, see if it opens from there. The forum may have mangled the link in 3270's post.
 
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Peter Sarf

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Gosh it all comes flooding back to me. Only 20 years after Beeching and I remember how depressing things were in the 80s - not just for the railways btw. Thats about 30 years ago now to put Serpel, Beeching and the growth we have now into context. In fact it was beginning to look extravagant how many units WITH bogies were being ordered in the 80s !.

Was it round that time that the Marylebone line was proposed for closure and conversion to a guided bus way ?.

Ah and around that time Maggie signed the entente cordial with President Mitterand(iirc) for the Channel Tunnel. Apparently at the time she still thought a road tunnel was a viable option ;). No one bothered to correct her (shtum lads) and of course it can always be converted to a road tunnel like the smaller centre bore right ?.
 

Techniquest

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Cheers for the suggestion there, downloaded the PDF (always got something to read if I ever get bored on shack attacks now!) and that map makes for grim viewing. How different the world would have been if that had gone ahead, not for the better either!

There's something else new to think about when I'm bored...
 

johnnychips

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Was it round that time that the Marylebone line was proposed for closure and conversion to a guided bus way.

I don't think it was even supposed to be guided - I thought it was 'coaches' not buses, but like others have said, it really does bring it back how badly people thought the railway future was.

And yes, we're miles off-topic.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Bringing us back on topic, does anyone happen to know if the Vivarail plans involve fitting gangways between the coaches within units?
 

RPM

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I don't think it was even supposed to be guided - I thought it was 'coaches' not buses, but like others have said, it really does bring it back how badly people thought the railway future was.

And yes, we're miles off-topic.

Not guided at all, and no explanation whatsoever as to how the 'coaches' would safely negotiate the tunnels with sub-optimal width for road conversion. If the project was guided by anything it was by an insane and illogical anti-rail agenda.

The person behind this delusion still proposes rail to road conversions. I've clashed with him on Twitter once or twice, but you can't really argue with someone who believes black is white.

I'm not entirely unaware of how off-topic this is, but I'm just going with the flow.:roll:
 

D60

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Bringing us back on topic, does anyone happen to know if the Vivarail plans involve fitting gangways between the coaches within units?

Yes, the Vivarail website indicates that gangways will be provided between cars within a set, and that a compliant toilet can be provided in a centre trailer car..

(Oops, sorry for being so boringly on-topic, aboard the crazy unpredictable ride that is the D78 thread!) :)
 

THC

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@ RPM and johnnychips

To finish the off-topic diversion, the story of Marylebone's brush with closure, with contributions from several of the people involved at the time, is told in minute detail here. It is well worth spending a rainy afternoon reading the whole thing.

And to go back on-topic, Vivarail's plans, along with a "Modern Railways" article from December 2014 by Roger Ford, can be found at http://www.vivarail.co.uk/blog.

THC
 

superalbs

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Aren't prototypes for this and the Class 144e out in April? That's mext month so I would of expected a little more news.
 

D60

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Aren't prototypes for this and the Class 144e out in April? That's mext month so I would of expected a little more news.

Yes, I've seen "April" spoken of for the 144e... But "end of May", and "summer", for the D-train.. vehicles of which are being worked on at Long Marston (re-engineering) and Leamington Spa (interiors)..
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Xenophon PCDGS

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What car manufacturer uses the base model in publicity?

Indeed so, but they seem to have no compunction in using the basic model price as a base when they say...From £X,XXX...<(
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The publicity is meant to sell the vision and to give potential buyers an idea of what they could have.

I would not mind if they carried a rider to each image...Tables come as an optional extra...:D
 

andyb2706

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Indeed so, but they seem to have no compunction in using the basic model price as a base when they say...From £X,XXX...<(optional extra...:D

Totally agree. You want air-con well that is £xx amount more, sat-nav that will be £xxx.....seat? You want a seat! that's £xxxx amount more.....sorry, Jeremy Clarckson mode there, sure that is another thread ;)
 

Bantamzen

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I see tables are described as extras that any purchaser will have to pay extra for, but Vivarail blatantly show tables in most of their recent literature as if this was the normal basic interior package.

To be fair it's pretty much standard for any product these days to showcase the top of the line model, complete with pops bells and whistles. It's only when you get all excited about it that they tell you that those tables are optional extras, and you want toilets, <sucks air through teeth>, that's going to cost you. But hey there's always the bolt on coffee bar....

Seriously though, two things strike me here. Firstly from the full website, the 360 rendering and the email, the interior changes each time. Surely by now they will have settled on the configuration and design? A small point but an important one, if they can't get simple details consistent what can they?

But far, far more importantly they are saying it will be the summer before a prototype even hits the rails. So real data that ROSCOs and TOCs can actually analyse won't be available until much later in the year right? But the Northern franchise bids, which Vivarail have more than hinted might be a big customer, and many on here have said that these would be useful for have to be by the end of June. Long before the first unit is expected to even get a test. So the question begs, and I have asked it before, is any bidder really going to stake their bid on a completely untested unit in the hope that it turns out to be suitable for them, or is it more likely that they would talk to other train builders in order to secure a quote for units that they know will be suitable?

OK there may be scope in other franchises for smaller orders of these D-stockers, but this might be patchy at best and would it make the whole project viable? I'll confess that I have been cynical about this at best, but given the current circumstances is this something that anybody should be staking any real interest in? After all if the optional extras are going to add to the cost per unit which has gone from 1/3 of the cost of a new unit to 2/3 the cost, is this really the great deal that has excited some? Just because the ex-boss of a TOC has bought some nearly 3 decades old stock and promises to make them a bit shinier with new engines strapped underneath, do we really have to hail them as the answer to our diesel stock problem? Personally I think not.
 
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