Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[HLE]

The Coventry to Nuneaton line was highlighted as somewhere desperate for additional DMU capacity to serve the Ricoh Arena, and a possible use for the 230s, though I don't know how economic this would be considering the capacity would only be needed on match days (Wasps and Coventry City)

We'll stick with the dogboxes thank you !

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Some of us will recall CSRE (UK) trying to sell low cost Chinese built DMUs as a Pacer replacement option, which reportedly Northern Rail were interested in but DfT weren't interested and DfT's lack of interest is what resulted in it not going ahead. Is the Vivarail project heading for the same outcome?

Indeed this is so and such is the fame of this particular website, their CEO actually became a member of this website under the username of Kingfisher200262. Events at the time saw many doubts expressed about Chinese rail unit workmanship and reliability, but time since then has seen much in the way of product improvement by the Chinese, as a reading of their latest rolling stock will make clear.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

We'll stick with the dogboxes thank you !

But if those dogboxes could be used to strengthen other services (or provide a "hot spare" for Marston Vale)...?

 

[jimm]

As long as Vivarail accept the old adage of "time and tide wait for no man". If they choose to accept a long period of development time then find out that in the interim period that events have overtaken them in terms of new franchise agreements with certain strictures and new fleets being ordered to meet the wording of these new franchises, they cannot expect that special allowances will be made for them by those charged with rolling stock procurement.

I am so pleased to hear that my "fame" has now spread far and wide in my opposition to Britain accepting a third world "new lamps for old" rolling stock scenario, so very soon after the Pacer "short-term branch line saviour" debacle, but even I will be the first to admit that the Pacers were not subject to a 60mph top speed. As far as I am concerned, the latest score remains at Shooter 0 Sidorczuk 1....

Having seen the trailer car taking shape, I can assure you there won't be much longer to wait. Maybe that will make the score 1-1...

And who has said anything about TOCs taking them on necessarily being linked to new franchises?

We'll stick with the dogboxes thank you !

Doing precisely nothing to address the issue of serving the Arena station. Wasps are unlikely to see current arrangements as a long-term answer and Coventry City don't have the money to follow suit. So your answer is...?

 

[pemma]

A post on the D-Train thread on wnxx this morning states someone at Govia rejected refurbished D-Trains due to them being a lot more expensive than the originally mooted prices.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

If it comes down to it, I will test the blooming things on a Hull - York trip

 

[Greybeard33]

A post on the D-Train thread on wnxx this morning states someone at Govia rejected refurbished D-Trains due to them being a lot more expensive than the originally mooted prices.

-Price we don't really know, there haven't been any orders for 5 years! The CAF order is £490m for 281 carriages, 140 of these are DMU. The GatEx 387 order was £145.2m for 108 EMU carriages. If we say the CAF EMUs are priced head-to-head with Bombardier at £1.35m/car, that makes the DMUs £2.15m/car. In comparison, the London Midland 172s were £1.35m/car, five years ago.
That cost is close to Vivarail's estimate of £2m/car, which they claim to provide a 3-car train for.
I don't see this as a bulk order; it's probably the minimum viable order for a new design. As to whether it's cheap, or any more orders (bulk or otherwise) are in the pipeline, I guess we'll continue to speculate.

Even if those prices are still valid (I suspect Vivarail's £2m estimate assumed that they would sell the lot to minimise the development cost recovery), a £2m 3-car D-train, 54m long, would be 46% of the cost of a 56m, 2-car CAF DMU, but have less than a third of the life expectancy and be restricted to the few routes where a 60mph top speed is tolerable.

I doubt that would seem like a great bargain to the purchasing ROSCO or the DfT underwriter.

 

[jimm]

Even if those prices are still valid (I suspect Vivarail's £2m estimate assumed that they would sell the lot to minimise the development cost recovery), a £2m 3-car D-train, 54m long, would be 46% of the cost of a 56m, 2-car CAF DMU, but have less than a third of the life expectancy and be restricted to the few routes where a 60mph top speed is tolerable.

I doubt that would seem like a great bargain to the purchasing ROSCO or the DfT underwriter.

As far as I know, Vivarail are not looking to the Roscos for orders and have potential financing lined up elsewhere, so they could offer a lease or power-by-the-hour type package themselves.

 

[Clip]

Cant we just wait till the prototype is fully built and tested and we have official comment from TOCs rather than heresay or rumour that perpetuates peoples personal opposition to these things before you make comment.]

'My mates mam who's sister runs the canteen at Laira told us GWR didnt want them' so it ,must be true:roll:

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As far as I know, Vivarail are not looking to the Roscos for orders and have potential financing lined up elsewhere, so they could offer a lease or power-by-the-hour type package themselves.

I'd always assumed that Vivarail would in effect act as ROSCO for the 230 units, in the absence of any mention of involvement of the established names in the industry.

 

[jcc]

Could they not scrap a few, and convert the rest- sort of the medium option between scrapping all of them and making a full out loss (I think that I read somewhere that they paid more than scrap value as there were two bidders) or converting too many, and making a loss because no one wants the things.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Could they not scrap a few, and convert the rest- sort of the medium option between scrapping all of them and making a full out loss (I think that I read somewhere that they paid more than scrap value as there were two bidders) or converting too many, and making a loss because no one wants the things.

I'd guess that the only conversion that'll get done prior to orders coming in or at least being enquired about will be the prototype. With the rest being "screwdriver-ready" for any firm orders coming in.

 

[pemma]

'My mates mam who's sister runs the canteen at Laira told us GWR didnt want them' so it ,must be true:roll:

Well the person who told us he understands the trial has been called off correctly predicted Arriva would win the Northern franchise, First would win the TPE franchise and that CAF were interested in building new DMUs for Northern weeks before the franchise announcements were made. I think his sources are very reliable. He's also previously pointed out the GWR agreement includes the option for a trial, First Group weren't under any obligation to do it, any more than they had to include loco hauled 442s in their TPE bid, DfT permitting them to do it doesn't mean they have to do it.

 

[Rob F]

How difficult would it be to modify the running gear to allow a top speed of 75mph? That might be a game changer in getting these things accepted.

 

[jimm]

How difficult would it be to modify the running gear to allow a top speed of 75mph? That might be a game changer in getting these things accepted.

Very difficult, as the current traction motors are near their limit at 60mph, so replacing all those would put up the bill in a big way, plus the suspension would probably need some substantial work as well. Vivarail has always been very clear what the train could and could not do from the start and there are sound reasons for that.

 

[HLE]

Having seen the trailer car taking shape, I can assure you there won't be much longer to wait. Maybe that will make the score 1-1...

And who has said anything about TOCs taking them on necessarily being linked to new franchises?



Doing precisely nothing to address the issue of serving the Arena station. Wasps are unlikely to see current arrangements as a long-term answer and Coventry City don't have the money to follow suit. So your answer is...?

Wasps certainly don't see it as a long term solution. It's a trial in conjunction with LM, nothing more. Coventry City don't want to know.

The issue of matchday services to the Ricoh won't really be able to be truly solved until phase two is completed, where the crossing will be in place so
trains can 'run round' at the arena.

The other issue would be who is to operate it long term. As I've said before, 153's are the only diesels Cov drivers sign, and only link 1 at that.
No other LM depot signs the route.

There aren't any plans in place to change anything on that either. There are some in place to 'enhance' the normal service, however the original date mentioned will probably be missed.

It's no secret that originally the plans were to replace the dogbox with 'cascaded' 170/172's once the Chase was wired. Whether that happens is anyone's guess.

Therefore, I believe that by the time phase 2 is completed we will have surplus diesel units due to electrification of the chase line. With any luck we'll get 170/2's to replace the 153's for strengthening elsewhere. Here's hoping.

I'm talking long term though, I doubt phase 2 will be finished anytime within the next few years.

It's strange how no-one mentions the 3 150's we have. Send the 230's on the marston vale where their acceleration would be more beneficial and give us the 153 and 150 that would be released!

Personally I and quite a few others don't want 230's. There, I've said it.

All opinions are my own.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Wasps certainly don't see it as a long term solution. It's a trial in conjunction with LM, nothing more. Coventry City don't want to know.

The issue of matchday services to the Ricoh won't really be able to be truly solved until phase two is completed, where the crossing will be in place so
trains can 'run round' at the arena.

The other issue would be who is to operate it long term. As I've said before, 153's are the only diesels Cov drivers sign, and only link 1 at that.
No other LM depot signs the route.

There aren't any plans in place to change anything on that either. There are some in place to 'enhance' the normal service, however the original date mentioned will probably be missed.

It's no secret that originally the plans were to replace the dogbox with 'cascaded' 170/172's once the Chase was wired. Whether that happens is anyone's guess.

Therefore, I believe that by the time phase 2 is completed we will have surplus diesel units due to electrification of the chase line. With any luck we'll get 170/2's to replace the 153's for strengthening elsewhere. Here's hoping.

I'm talking long term though, I doubt phase 2 will be finished anytime within the next few years.

It's strange how no-one mentions the 3 150's we have. Send the 230's on the marston vale where their acceleration would be more beneficial and give us the 153 and 150 that would be released!

Personally I and quite a few others don't want 230's. There, I've said it.

All opinions are my own.

Aren't the 150's off to Northern?

 

[jimm]

I'm talking long term though, I doubt phase 2 will be finished anytime within the next few years.

So what happens until then?

You may not like the idea of 230s but if Centro does and puts up the money, then they might appear, just the same as 170s or 172s might appear, or more 153s released from GWR might appear, or nothing might happen, with the Arena station staying shut on match days...

Someone might order 230s, then again it might be that no one does. We don't know yet but the fact remains that they have been and still are being openly talked about as a possible answer to the Arena conundrum. That's all.

Rather like the idea of GWR hosting a trial of the 230 prototype in passenger service was mentioned but nothing more than that. And given that it was meant to be tested on the main line late last year and presumably Network Rail type-approved by now but has yet to venture out of Long Marston, it may, as I said above, simply be the case that the time window GWR envisaged hosting such trials in has simply closed, rather than a trial not taking place with GWR being an earth-shattering and devastating snub to Vivarail, as some people posting here seem to want to imply.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You may not like the idea of 230s but if Centro does and puts up the money, then they might appear, just the same as 170s or 172s might appear, or more 153s released from GWR might appear, or nothing might happen, with the Arena station staying shut on match days...

Someone might order 230s, then again it might be that no one does. We don't know yet but the fact remains that they have been and still are being openly talked about as a possible answer to the Arena conundrum. That's all.

From what you can gather, how much support has Centro actually publically expressed and have they ring-fenced any finance that can be shown in their future budgetary powers as being dedicated to obtaining any Class 230 units.

With regards to your mention of "a possible answer to the Arena conundrum", how many Class 230 units are felt to be necessary to fulfil that particular task?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ETA: You all seem to think I may be annoyed by these not being viable somewhere but you would be wrong. From the outset I have kept an open mind about them and have been saying all along to wait until one is finished and has been tested before seeing its viability. You however, along with others, have simply been against them from the word go. A world of difference chum..............p.

With regards to the time being taken by Vivarail that you state above, can I refer you to the comments that I made covering that very matter in my posting # 2970 on this thread.

Vivarail seem to have been overcome by subsequent events and any procrastination on their part in obtaining approval will only harm their case even more,

 

[jimm]

From what you can gather, how much support has Centro actually publically expressed and have they ring-fenced any finance that can be shown in their future budgetary powers as being dedicated to obtaining any Class 230 units.

With regards to your mention of "a possible answer to the Arena conundrum", how many Class 230 units are felt to be necessary to fulfil that particular task?[

All I know is that Centro representatives were at Long Marston the same day as the Coventry City Council delegation was there. That's all. Presumably, like everyone else who might be interested, they want to see the train put through its paces on the network. Beyond that, who knows, given the LM franchise renewal process is just getting into gear and there are all the unresolved issues over the various stages of the Nuckle project as well.

How would I know how many trains? I don't know the travel patterns of people attending games at the Ricoh Arena. If a crush-loaded D78 coach holds about 120 people then a three-car set in Underground-type configuration could shift say 350 people at one go - though a 230 could certainly do it more economically than two Class 67s and some Mk2s.

Vivarail seem to have been overcome by subsequent events and any procrastination on their part in obtaining approval will only harm their case even more,

I saw no evidence of anyone at Long Marston being overcome by anything or procrastinating, they were just getting on with the job of getting the train as good as they can make it, ready to run on the Cotswold Line in a few weeks' time.

After that, it is up to others to decide whether they want to try it out or to lease or buy some. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can anyone say if any recent statements have been forthcoming from the Railroad Development Corporation of Pittsburgh, as I understand they have a stake in this Class 230 project.

 

[jcc]

To be fair, I doubt they are deliberately procrastinating to annoy Clip, and I think that they are actually just behind schedule! Although, in comparison to the Class 458/5 scheme, Vivarail aren't doing too badly...

 

[jimm]

Can anyone say if any recent statements have been forthcoming from the Railroad Development Corporation of Pittsburgh, as I understand they have a stake in this Class 230 project.

Yes, they have a stake, it's hardly a secret. 600 £1 ordinary shares and 3.5 million £1 preference shares to be precise - so bar the 600 ordinary shares issued to other directors, Vivarail is basically a wholly-owned subsidiary of RRDC and RRDC's chairman Henry Posner is a director of Vivarail.

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/08661726/VIVARAIL-LTD/group-structure

The tabs at the same page list all Vivarail's directors and have the accounts filed for 2014 and 2015.

I don't know what statements you might expect to be forthcoming, as it's a racing certainty that any statements about Vivarail will be coming via Vivarail.

But if you want to check, here's RRDC website http://www.rrdc.com

 

[Chester1]

Yes, they have a stake, it's hardly a secret. 600 £1 ordinary shares and 3.5 million £1 preference shares to be precise - so bar the 600 ordinary shares issued to other directors, Vivarail is basically a wholly-owned subsidiary of RRDC and RRDC's chairman Henry Posner is a director of Vivarail.

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/08661726/VIVARAIL-LTD/group-structure

The tabs at the same page list all Vivarail's directors and have the accounts filed for 2014 and 2015.

I don't know what statements you might expect to be forthcoming, as it's a racing certainty that any statements about Vivarail will be coming via Vivarail.

But if you want to check, here's RRDC website http://www.rrdc.com

Preference shares do not ussually give voting rights. This means that all the directors collectively have the same voting rights as RRDC, allowing them to veto major decisions. I suspect this structure was setup to attract them to the job in the first place and to satisify external creditors.

 

[jimm]

Preference shares do not ussually give voting rights. This means that all the directors collectively have the same voting rights as RRDC, allowing them to veto major decisions. I suspect this structure was setup to attract them to the job in the first place and to satisify external creditors.

Or provide the working capital and pay for the conversion of the prototype.

Whatever the case, if Mr Sidorczuk is hoping for some pronouncement from Pittsburgh killing the project, he will be disappointed - at least for the time being. Like I said, no one is holdng a gun to anyone's head. Adrian Shooter can't force someone to order a 230 and even if someone does lease or buy, we now know it won't be a TOC serving very rural Cheshire so I fail to see what the problem is, unless Mr S is planning a special trip to wherever the prototype is eventually tested, just so he can be suitably disgusted and horrified

 

[asylumxl]

Or provide the working capital and pay for the conversion of the prototype.

Whatever the case, if Mr Sidorczuk is hoping for some pronouncement from Pittsburgh killing the project, he will be disappointed - at least for the time being. Like I said, no one is holdng a gun to anyone's head. Adrian Shooter can't force someone to order a 230 and even if someone does lease or buy, we now know it won't be a TOC serving very rural Cheshire so I fail to see what the problem is, unless Mr S is planning a special trip to wherever the prototype is eventually tested, just so he can be suitably disgusted and horrified

What if Mr Sidorczuk has a stake in a ROSCO or rolling stock manufacturer?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What if Mr Sidorczuk has a stake in a ROSCO or rolling stock manufacturer?

Well, it is rumoured amongst financial markets that my large and varied portfolio is viewed as something akin to a Cheshire East sovereign wealth fund portfolio....

 

[Amberley54]

Well, it is rumoured amongst financial markets that my large and varied portfolio is viewed as something akin to a Cheshire East sovereign wealth fund portfolio....

If so, don't let Micheal Jones anywhere near it!

Fraternally yours,N.

 

[irish_rail]

Cant we just wait till the prototype is fully built and tested and we have official comment from TOCs rather than heresay or rumour that perpetuates peoples personal opposition to these things before you make comment.]

'My mates mam who's sister runs the canteen at Laira told us GWR didnt want them' so it ,must be true:roll:

Nope, heard it from one of the regional driver managers, so fair chance there is some substance. No 230s for the south west

 

[route:oxford]

Nope, heard it from one of the regional driver managers, so fair chance there is some substance. No 230s for the south west

Was that expressed by the driver with delight or sadness?

The D78 driver cabin appears to be a touch more comfortable than the Pacer.