Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Techniquest]

Wasn't it December 2016 for the 230s to hopefully start service? I'm still hoping it will be, as it will transform my Monday Mini Bashes!

 

[HLE]

The trial is still on. However it is unlikely to be December, more so early next year.

We'll see whether the other intended enhancement to services on the line happens around the same time. Would make a lot of sense if it did.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The only places I can see these being used will be branch lines where the normal services don't interact with any other routes

 

[The Planner]

Going through the Vehicle Change process now so they are a goer and LM must have confidence in them.

 

[Clip]

Well good luck to them - did the WMCA have a large hand in pushing this through do you knwo? I seem to remember that from a previous news story.

 

[swt_passenger]

The only places I can see these being used will be branch lines where the normal services don't interact with any other routes

Do you therefore expect they'll stop well short of both Nuneaton and Coventry stations; to avoid interacting with other routes?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do you therefore expect they'll stop well short of both Nuneaton and Coventry stations; to avoid interacting with other routes?

and what do you propose should rescue it if it craps out at either Nuneaton or Coventry blocking lines in/out of them stations?:roll:

 

[southern442]

and what do you propose should rescue it if it craps out at either Nuneaton or Coventry blocking lines in/out of them stations?:roll:

Whatever rescues normal DMU's when they crap out maybe?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Whatever rescues normal DMU's when they crap out maybe?

Most times rescue of a completely failed DMU/EMU is done by a unit with the same couplings it seems. The point is, I guess, that there are no other units with the same coupling as a 230. Perhaps there will be some kind of coupling adapter kept in the cab that can be used when a more standard DMU has to drag it.

Also is there not a plan (long term ?) to add a separate bay platform at Coventry so that the Nuneaton service does not conflict with the main line at Coventry ?. Nuneaton has a slightly more spare platform iirc.

Also do not forget that the 230 is designed to be maintained in the field (er !) so will not require a trip to a normal depot to fix things. Someone will arrive in a road van and fettle.

 

[ac6000cw]

and what do you propose should rescue it if it craps out at either Nuneaton or Coventry blocking lines in/out of them stations?:roll:

You don't have much faith in engineers being able to design and build something that works reliability, do you?

I suspect that during this trial phase there is likely to be a Vivarail engineer/fitter very close by all the time, both to fix any faults that crop up and monitor the performance of the train (which is one of the reasons why they are doing this in the first place).

 

[D365]

You don't have much faith in engineers being able to design and build something that works reliability, do you?

Nope - as far as I can tell he's oft belittling rolling stock/TMS engineers.

 

[swt_passenger]

and what do you propose should rescue it if it craps out at either Nuneaton or Coventry blocking lines in/out of them stations?:roll:

How do you propose it runs a service from Coventry to Nuneaton without calling at those stations? :roll::roll:

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How do you propose it runs a service from Coventry to Nuneaton without calling at those stations? :roll::roll:

It seems like some people are expecting TOCs to put up with a 230 blocking the mainline if it craps out. Unless there's a suitable coupling adapter to rescue a failed 230 you'd need to locate a barrier wagon to be able to rescue a failed unit.:roll:

You don't have much faith in engineers being able to design and build something that works reliability, do you?

I suspect that during this trial phase there is likely to be a Vivarail engineer/fitter very close by all the time, both to fix any faults that crop up and monitor the performance of the train (which is one of the reasons why they are doing this in the first place).

Why do you think I've suggested trialling it on a line which doesn't interfere with the main line? Any faults or problems won't affect the mainline and the engineers still get their performance data.:roll:

 

[The Planner]

They will carry a coupling adapter on board, it is in the Vehicle Change documentation. If it did fail at Cov or Nuneaton you could work around it anyway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If any such disruption caused by a failure should be seen to occur, what time period on no service provision by a Class 230 unit would be envisaged? Should the problem be a major one, have Vivarail a 3-car back-up unit to continue running the services in that period of the twelve month contract?

 

[Domh245]

Why do you think I've suggested trialling it on a line which doesn't interfere with the main line? Any faults or problems won't affect the mainline and the engineers still get their performance data.:roll:

What do you think it's been doing all it's life? Sitting at Long Marston gathering dust or going and accumulating miles on the test track there? I suspect that the train is more or less good to go, it just needs drivers training on it and some paperwork filling out.

 

[1179_Clee2]

What do you think it's been doing all it's life? Sitting at Long Marston gathering dust or going and accumulating miles on the test track there? I suspect that the train is more or less good to go, it just needs drivers training on it and some paperwork filling out.

I agree it has been going around and around Long Marston's round test track AT 20 OR 30 MPH, no where near it's maximum speed of 60 MPH.
Accumulating miles YES.
Testing for use in the real world NO.
The Fact is that this train has NEVER run at 60 MPH in service in it's entire life.
Vivarail STILL have to prove it can run in service at 60 MPH and not fail every day or so!
Your question "the train is more or less good to go" the answer is NO!
More testing is required!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree it has been going around and around Long Marston's round test track AT 20 OR 30 MPH, no where near it's maximum speed of 60 MPH.
Accumulating miles YES.
Testing for use in the real world NO.
The Fact is that this train has NEVER run at 60 MPH in service in it's entire life.
Vivarail STILL have to prove it can run in service at 60 MPH and not fail every day or so!
Your question "the train is more or less good to go" the answer is NO!
More testing is required!

But remember that the vast majority of the train is well-proven at running day in, day out on LU services. It's essentially been reformed and repowered, but the basic train is very well proven.

If you put a generator in the pantograph coach of a Class 319, say, it wouldn't be a lot different. All the existing running gear would be as before. (Actually, is that a better idea for a DMU-from-EMU conversion? Remove the heavy transformer and it might well not be a weight issue...)

 

[chrissawer]

A new video on the class 230 has been published to accompany a FT article. It shows the train running with interior and exterior shots, driver's viewpoint and technical details of the bogies and power modules, including swapping one out. Interesting to watch.

Direct link to the video: https://t.co/wmHfvGbIz6

Article: https://www.ft.com/content/11f77da2-8492-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wonder what the ex Metro tram is doing there?

 

[sprinterguy]

Wonder what the ex Metro tram is doing there?

Fifteen of the sixteen former Midland Metro trams are at Long Marston. A couple are being utilised by the Light Rail Vehicle Test Fleet set up by UK Tram and Future Railway, along with a handful of former Manchester Metrolink T68s, the others are simply being retained in long term future in case a potential future use becomes apparent.

http://centro.org.uk/about-us/news/2014/midland-metro-trams-start-new-journey-at-research-centre/
The T69 Ansaldo trams have been loaned to the Light Rail Vehicle Test Fleet at Long Marston in Warwickshire by Centro, the Midlands' transport authority for research and innovation purposes.

The test fleet has been established under an agreement between UK Tram and Future Railway and two further trams will be provided by Transport for Greater Manchester at the Network Rail test facility at Old Dalby in Leicestershire.

UK Tram and FutureRailway have joined forces to help the future development of tramways in the UK through research and innovation.

Under the scheme the vehicles will be used to test new products and innovations for the tram industry.

 

[Mordac]

But remember that the vast majority of the train is well-proven at running day in, day out on LU services. It's essentially been reformed and repowered, but the basic train is very well proven.

If you put a generator in the pantograph coach of a Class 319, say, it wouldn't be a lot different. All the existing running gear would be as before. (Actually, is that a better idea for a DMU-from-EMU conversion? Remove the heavy transformer and it might well not be a weight issue...)

Not to mention that the top speed on the branch is only 45 anyway.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What do you think it's been doing all it's life? Sitting at Long Marston gathering dust or going and accumulating miles on the test track there? I suspect that the train is more or less good to go, it just needs drivers training on it and some paperwork filling out.

There's only so much testing that can be done on a test track, real use will find things that weren't discovered during testing on a test track

 

[D365]

There's only so much testing that can be done on a test track, real use will find things that weren't discovered during testing on a test track

Hence the upcoming year-long trial!

 

[1179_Clee2]

But remember that the vast majority of the train is well-proven at running day in, day out on LU services. It's essentially been reformed and repowered, but the basic train is very well proven.

If you put a generator in the pantograph coach of a Class 319, say, it wouldn't be a lot different. All the existing running gear would be as before. (Actually, is that a better idea for a DMU-from-EMU conversion? Remove the heavy transformer and it might well not be a weight issue...)

The FACTS ARE that the vast majority of the train DOES NOT have a well proven record at running day in and day out on LU service.
What is left bellow the frames that ran on LU?
Only bogies and electric motors.
It is not rocket science to prove a bogie will roll and a electric motor will turn with a electric current.
What you do need to prove is the new electrical control and the diesel engines ect ect, as this DID NOT RUN ANYWHERE on LU.
Like I said in my original post MORE TESTING needs to be done.
Everything needs to be PROVEN, before anybody makes comment that they are just going to work because they did on LU.

 

[Townsend Hook]

The FACTS ARE that the vast majority of the train DOES NOT have a well proven record at running day in and day out on LU service.
What is left bellow the frames that ran on LU?
Only bogies and electric motors.
It is not rocket science to prove a bogie will roll and a electric motor will turn with a electric current.
What you do need to prove is the new electrical control and the diesel engines ect ect, as this DID NOT RUN ANYWHERE on LU.
Like I said in my original post MORE TESTING needs to be done.
Everything needs to be PROVEN, before anybody makes comment that they are just going to work because they did on LU.

No need to shout..

The engines were proven before the project even started, being off-the-shelf automotive engines. As for controllers, fair enough some testing at 60mph will be nice but with the amount of miles the test unit will have accumulated at Long Marston they will be most of the way there.

 

[HLE]

I agree it has been going around and around Long Marston's round test track AT 20 OR 30 MPH, no where near it's maximum speed of 60 MPH.
Accumulating miles YES.
Testing for use in the real world NO.
The Fact is that this train has NEVER run at 60 MPH in service in it's entire life.
Vivarail STILL have to prove it can run in service at 60 MPH and not fail every day or so!
Your question "the train is more or less good to go" the answer is NO!
More testing is required!

It won't achieve 60mph running on the Nuneaton branch, permitted speed is 45mph mostly.

 

[The Planner]

It will go through all the required testing and sign off so it can get through ROGS.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It won't achieve 60mph running on the Nuneaton branch, permitted speed is 45mph mostly.

What section lengths on the Coventry to Nuneaton line are above this 45mph limit and where are they?

 

[Peter Sarf]

To recap.

The 230 has been tested up to to 20 mph at Long Marston. It has proven running gear, structure and doors - all as used on London Underground. The engines are a proven automotive design. It has been confirmed it has a coupling adaptor for rescue.

The main areas of uncertainty it seems to me are the control module and how the engines behave under a rail vehicle. But it works up to 20 mph on ropey track.

So how to progress things ?. How about a faster line with real world passengers on it !. One that is off the route used by other services as far as possible. The Coventry to Nuneaton route is fairly self contained, has a line speed reaching 45 mph and is in need of an increase in capacity.

Currently the line is operated by a 153 - a single car. The 230 will be an improvement as it is longer. So if it breaks down the service will have to revert to the single car train CURRENTLY USED. I expect the 153 will be kept hanging around near Coventry/Nuneaton for an initial period until LM are more confident. If a 153 is not available for rescue (that can happen - other trains do break down) then it follows that the service will be disrupted if the 230 breaks down. BUT that is the same situation as if the 230 had never existed. However, while one or both of a 153 and the 230 are working, the service will be better.