Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[northwichcat]

I seem to remember towards the end of the second half of the noughties that there were proposals to electrify the York - Leeds via Harrogate route, and to use cascaded London Underground stock.

Obviously, this would have meant third rail DC, of which the government is not enthusiastic about nowadays.

Have both the councils of the West Riding (or West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive) and the North Riding now gone cool on the idea of using cascaded London Underground stock for that route, or do they still harbour those desires in a different form?

It was Harrogate Chamber of Trade and Commerce who proposed the idea as a way to give Harrogate a Metro style service to Leeds and York. As far as I'm aware the local councils and PTEs never backed the idea.

 

[adrock1976]

Many thanks for clarifying - I forgot to make reference to a business interest group/organisation in my previous post.

 

[GNERman]

Here's an article from RailNews on said proposal - https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2011/07/15-district-line-to-harrogate-electrification.html, and even a link to the RUKF thread from the time... http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=48800

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I seem to remember towards the end of the second half of the noughties that there were proposals to electrify the York - Leeds via Harrogate route, and to use cascaded London Underground stock.

Obviously, this would have meant third rail DC, of which the government is not enthusiastic about nowadays.

Have both the councils of the West Riding (or West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive) and the North Riding now gone cool on the idea of using cascaded London Underground stock for that route, or do they still harbour those desires in a different form?

Can I point out that prior to South Yorkshire the West Riding also included Sheffield, Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham, Skipton, Settle and even Goole. Despite being from Yorkshire I don't reconise the three ridings anymore, what I do reconise is the four parts of Yorkshire - North, South, East and West.

Back to the 230's though, should the Pudsey Lowtown loop ever reopen then at least four of these 230's could be used on that. I'd even think that EMT or GWR could end up opting for some.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I seem to remember towards the end of the second half of the noughties that there were proposals to electrify the York - Leeds via Harrogate route, and to use cascaded London Underground stock.

Obviously, this would have meant third rail DC, of which the government is not enthusiastic about nowadays.

Have both the councils of the West Riding (or West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive) and the North Riding now gone cool on the idea of using cascaded London Underground stock for that route, or do they still harbour those desires in a different form?

no proposals, just the frothing of the self appointed business leaders ...

 

[Roose]

Can I point out that prior to South Yorkshire the West Riding also included Sheffield, Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham, Skipton, Settle and even Goole. Despite being from Yorkshire I don't reconise the three ridings anymore, what I do reconise is the four parts of Yorkshire - North, South, East and West.

You don't recognise the traditional Ridings yet do recognise South Yorkshire which only had a county council from 1974-1986??!!

Bizarre...

 

[AnonymousUser1]

You don't recognise the traditional Ridings yet do recognise South Yorkshire which only had a county council from 1974-1986??!!

Bizarre...

however the area of 'South Yorkshire' had roughly 100 years + pre SYCC of being a significant and important area centred around the Steel and Engineering of Sheffield ( and it's university and medical school) and the Railway at Doncaster ...

 

[Starmill]

You don't recognise the traditional Ridings yet do recognise South Yorkshire which only had a county council from 1974-1986??!!

Bizarre...

Why?

South Yorkshire is a contemporary county, and therefore the only recognisable form, along with its component authorities.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Back to the 230's though, should the Pudsey Lowtown loop ever reopen then at least four of these 230's could be used on that. I'd even think that EMT or GWR could end up opting for some.

Was the line of the former Pudsey loop line breached by a by-pass at any point?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Was the line of the former Pudsey loop line breached by a by-pass at any point?

I could be wrong but I do think that the line may have been breached at Swinnow Moor, by looking on a map, but even then that obstical can be over come by building another tunnel up to the exiting railway infrastructure at Bramley (where the old line diverges).

The idea being is that if the Pudsey Lowtown Loop was reinstated, not only you could see the Horsforth turnbacks being diagrammed with it but also the Pontefract services could also be nailed to it too by using some 230's to help free up other rolling stock to be used elsewhere on the local rail network such as the Harrogates which are extremely busy and should have the minimum of five cars.


It would also be cheaper to signal the thing in a clockwise loop only, so to allow the line to run back to Leeds onto the exisiting line at New Pusdey by saving time by not having to change ends.

I should add that the 230's would also be ideal for the Dearne Valley Line too, again to free up exisiting units.

---

Why?

South Yorkshire is a contemporary county, and therefore the only recognisable form, along with its component authorities.

Even though the County Council went in '86, I still see the area that covers South Yorkshire today as Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield. It also has a coalfield named after the county - the South Yorkshire Coalfield.

But anyway lets get back to the class 230's.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sorry for continuing the off-topic, but I can't imagine that Pontefract services would be the first choice to send round a reopened Pudsey loop: on arrival at Leeds from the Holbeck direction, PonteCarlo services will be on the far South of the Leeds station throat. To then send them right over to the Armley lines would gobble up capacity at the throat. The extension of Nottingham services to Bradford is only viable if they run via Wakefield Westgate, as they'll be using the same approach tracks in the throat from both Bradford and Nottingham, as opposed to crossing almost the entire throat.

If we end up with 230s in Yorkshire as a result of delayed cascades, there'll need to be some canny diagramming to both keep them from unsuitable routes and to free up the maximum number of 75mph+ units. They'd be fine on Harrogate services, and presumably the Penistone line too. Knottingley line units tend to alternate between serving Leeds and Wakefield Kirkgate but I don't think the 60mph limit would be a major problem on either leg. Other than Sheffield via Normanton and York to Sheffield, I don't think there's any others they'd be suitable for.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have just been through all that there is to see on the Vivarail website, including all the footnote information notes. It is now mid-November 2016 and I am surprised that there appears not to be any report on how much longer the trials still need to have to achieve the requirements that will allow the already agreed twelve month lease trials in passenger carrying service on the Covemtry to Nuneaton line.

 

[route:oxford]

I have just been through all that there is to see on the Vivarail website, including all the footnote information notes. It is now mid-November 2016 and I am surprised that there appears not to be any report on how much longer the trials still need to have to achieve the requirements that will allow the already agreed twelve month lease trials in passenger carrying service on the Coventry to Nuneaton line.

I'm surprised that you are suprised...

Surely that is what you hoped for as part of your ongoing campaign?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm surprised that you are suprised...

Surely that is what you hoped for as part of your ongoing campaign?

Not so, as I am mindful that a lease agreement for a 12 month period has actually been signed to provide service on the Coventry to Nuneaton line and therefore matters have moved on to the stage of where it can be seen to provide actual passenger carrying service.

 

[Clip]

Not so, as I am mindful that a lease agreement for a 12 month period has actually been signed to provide service on the Coventry to Nuneaton line and therefore matters have moved on to the stage of where it can be seen to provide actual passenger carrying service.

Youre memory must be failing you old chap as The Planner has stated a few pages back that they are currently doing the paperwork to let them loose onto the big railway and I do believe you replied on the very page and until that happens there wont be any announcement I would imagine.

 

[boxerdog]

The prototype unit is allegedly moving from its build location towards the end of this coming week.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The dates I have are specified in months in early 2017, no more specific than that, including the press runs and entering into service

I think that this is the posting shown above that clip was making reference to.

 

[Rup]

On today's railtechnologymagazine website ...

Adrian Shooter, chair of Vivarail and former chair of Chiltern Railways, discusses the impracticality of creating a train that suits everyone’s needs, and the design the company has adopted for the Class 230 on the Coventry to Nuneaton line

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Comment/in-pursuit-of-the-perfect-train-design

 

[D365]

On today's railtechnologymagazine website ...



http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Comment/in-pursuit-of-the-perfect-train-design

An interesting read. Claims that "the Class 230 will be in service later this year".

 

[HLE]

Rumour has it closer to home that Mid-Jan is the date that's now being put about.

Signed off yesterday from LM end. Apparently even the union reps are 'satisfied'

 

[The Planner]

Press run down the North Warks apparently.

 

[route:oxford]

An interesting read. Claims that "the Class 230 will be in service later this year".

If only they'd published this image before!

I wonder how many anti-230 contributors would have been won over by the prospect of craft-beers and potential of a sausage sandwich.

 

[adrock1976]

I wonder if that image came with the caveat "for illustrative purposes only"?

 

[asylumxl]

If only they'd published this image before!

I wonder how many anti-230 contributors would have been won over by the prospect of craft-beers and potential of a sausage sandwich.

The plan is to replace all buffet cars on GWR with connecting buffet services, operated by 230s.

 

[samuelmorris]

At first glance I think, 'how utterly minimalist, they've just put the old interior back' but having thought about it, why not? The transverse seats are arguably a bit too close together on the D78s but other than that, it's a fairly solid design. For a short distance route I see no real issue with it.

 

[Clip]

On today's railtechnologymagazine website ...



http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Comment/in-pursuit-of-the-perfect-train-design

Ooh thats gotta hurt.

Of course our erudite poster from some place in Cheshire will mention about the start date and other such issues but still.

Ooh thats gotta hurt.

 

[flappy8]

to all the people who want this to fail - would you rather travel in one of these or a Pacer or a crappy old Northern 150?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To all the people who want this to fail - would you rather travel in one of these or a Pacer or a crappy old Northern 150?

Looking at the life expectancy of the Class 142 Pacer units which are not long for this world and the period of life expectancy of the said Class 230 units which still have to enter service, how about making a comparison between the Class 230 unit and any of those new units that have been ordered by recent franchises. What lines were you considering in making such a comparison in your posting in areas where the likelihood of the two stated units is of being found? None of those units are to be found currently running on the Coventry to Nuneaton line, which for the foreseeable future will be the only line where the solitary Class 230 unit will be plying its trade. What is the exact Class 230 interior layout that has been specified to perform during the actual twelve month lease on the Coventry to Nuneaton line?

Comment cannot be made on possible failure in service of the Class 230 units until they have been in service for an amount of time in order to make such evaluations.

 

[47802]

to all the people who want this to fail - would you rather travel in one of these or a Pacer or a crappy old Northern 150?

Well for starters I don't like transverse seating unless its a very short distance. Given Pacers are meant to be getting the boot on Northern at least its not really an argument, as far I'm concerned a 150 is way better if given a good refurb and are then looked after and cleaned properly the latter 2 comments would also apply to a 230 and apply particularly to Northern.

Also forget the seating bull**** from shooter the transverse seating is just an excuse for a cheap job and trying to make the project more viable.

There a few routes where these units might make sense, but their lack of compatibility with anything else and their limited top speed which has already been discussed at length along with the overall costs allegedly not stacking up that well against new trains perhaps doesn't make it a great choice, plus if you go for the Stadler Bi-modes then you are future proofing against possible further electrification.

 

[Bletchleyite]

well for starters I don't like transverse seating unless its a very short distance. Given Pacers are meant to be getting the boot on Northern at least its not really an argument, as far I'm concerned a 150 is way better if given a good refurb and are then looked after and cleaned properly the latter 2 comments would also apply to a 230 and apply particularly to Northern.

This does seem something Northern are utterly incapable of.

LM south WCML trains, other than a bit of litter caused by mucky passengers later in the day, are normally spotless inside and out (except my standard bugbear about not bothering to brush air vents causing muck buildup on those).

VTWC trains even better with their travelling litter pickers.

There really is no excuse. There is nothing about old trains that prevents the use of a mop and bucket, a vacuum cleaner or a bucket and sponge on the windows.