Cross country 2 car 170s and seat reservations

[Midnight Sun]

You could catch the 0643 and 0754 East Midlands Trains services as far as Ely and change there for one of the regular trains to Cambridge, the latter would get you in at 0835, or 0851 if you missed the earlier train.

6.43 does't work as the train from Kings Lynn arrives packed at Ely very little chance of getting on as it is the last train from Kings Lynn to London to arrive before 9am at Kings Cross. The other one means I be late for work each day.

 

[Larry Trapp]

I see both sides; I think if a passenger has been told they have a reserved seat, particularly for a long journey, they should be entitled to it. But also it does cause a bit of consternation if passengers who think they have free seats are asked to move.

Personally, I know if I was on one of these trains and sat in a seat, and someone showed me their reservation I would move for them. And I would expect the same treatment.

Yes, I agree there, If I come along and there is no system to tell me such a seat is reserved, I’ll sit there, why shouldn’t I if I don’t know it’s reserved? and of course I’ll move if challenged.

On the other hand I know how I’d feel if I had reserved a seat and it was occupied and I was unable to use it, it’s happened to me more then once but so far a polite “Excuse me I’ve reserved that seat” is enough to be able to use it.

 

[gray1404]

I'm afraid I cancel them and advise the appropriate compensation measures. It's not worth the near or actual physical fisticuffs that the arguments can produce. Everyone sticks to the same line, those who have been failed can get their slice out of the train operator.

Reservations are enforceable by the appropriate notice being displayed as per the bylaws. If the company fails to display the official notice they should formally cancel the reservations and be done.

This is exactly my understanding of the rules too. Seat reservations in the UK are only enforceable by way of notice being placed to indicate the seat actually reserved. The bylaws are also written in such a way to reflect this. A passenger cannot be fined or reported for unauthorized occupation of a seat in the absence of such notice. If a passenger reserves a seat and this reservation is not honoured and they have to stand, there are arrangements in place for them to be compensated with many TOCs.

This is how the system actually is and does not come down to personal opinion.

 

[whhistle]

First point, SP speeds allow the 170s to run at a higher speed than other stock. There's a fair bit of SP speeds east of Leicester. For example, between Peterborough and Stamford in the down direction there is a section which is SP 75 but other stuff is limited to 50mph around Bainton. Over in the fens there are bigger differentials, especially the long section from Ely North Junction to Lakenheath (45 vs 75mph), though this isn't on the Stansted route.

This is where I don't understand why older stock seems to have some sort of advantage over more modern units, which I would assume are lighter / weight distribution is better.
Perhaps it's a matter of physics, or just a matter of effort - that nobody has really bothered to clear Voyagers / Meridians of higher speeds as it's not usual for them to take that route.


However, as I posted before, a bit of shifting stock here and there and XC could operate with 3-car trains all the time:

While not a great upgrade, the 3-coach 175s from TfW could be transferred to XC (16 175s to replace 13 2-coach 170s, giving three extra units to play with) so there's no reason why all the Stansted trains couldn't always be 3-coaches.

Then, send the ex-XC 2-coach 170s to EMT, and together with the all 170s from WMT, they could replace the whole 153/156 fleet over there as the numbers of units match exactly.

Sending more 2-coach trains (from WMT) to XC would only mean doubled up units, which they're not going to want to do as that means no revenue from one unit (which may annoy the SC), or double the staff, which clearly isn't an option.

 

[kristiang85]

I'm afraid I cancel them and advise the appropriate compensation measures. It's not worth the near or actual physical fisticuffs that the arguments can produce. Everyone sticks to the same line, those who have been failed can get their slice out of the train operator.

Reservations are enforceable by the appropriate notice being displayed as per the bylaws. If the company fails to display the official notice they should formally cancel the reservations and be done.

Can you get compensation for something you haven't paid for though? (given UK seat reservations are free)

 

[LowLevel]

Can you get compensation for something you haven't paid for though? (given UK seat reservations are free)

Yes. Minimum of 5% of the fare as per conditions of travel.

 

[gray1404]

In the days when some TOCs used to charge for seat reservations (e.g. Central Trains £1) if your reservation was not honored you were entitled to a refund of the fee paid. Although if you booked your ticket online or over the phone that charge was never applied. Plus some booking office staff (rightfully) would not charge it. Also, the conditions of travel allow a customer a fee free refund of their ticket if their reservation will not be honored (assuming the TOC state in advance) and the therefore the customer decides not to travel. As LowLevel has stated there is also the 5% compensation if you have a reservation and end up having to stand.

 

[kristiang85]

Yes. Minimum of 5% of the fare as per conditions of travel.

Oh interesting.

 

[Deafdoggie]

From the XC website:

“If for some reason we cannot honour your reservation and you are still without a seat after 20 minutes we will give you National Rail Vouchers to the value of at least 5% of the price for that journey in recognition of our inability to honour your seat reservation.

We cannot offer any vouchers if a seat has not been reserved beforehand.”

In other words “Always book a seat with us”

 

[Parallel]

5% doesn’t seem worth it in most cases. Say someone buys a £60 ticket. They get £3 back!

 

[gazzaa2]

They haven't got enough seats or carriages basically. Not fit for purpose.

 

[Midnight Sun]

They haven't got enough seats or carriages basically. Not fit for purpose.

And don't want to do anything about it. The contract should not have been a no growth one.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Sending more 2-coach trains (from WMT) to XC would only mean doubled up units, which they're not going to want to do as that means no revenue from one unit (which may annoy the SC), or double the staff, which clearly isn't an option.

Some peak time LEI-BHM which are doubled up units do have 2 booked guards (although the front one only checks the unit’s passenger’s tickets)

 

[LowLevel]

Some peak time LEI-BHM which are doubled up units do have 2 booked guards (although the front one only checks the unit’s passenger’s tickets)

They've always had a small handful of revenue protection staff at Leicester and New Street.

 

[kristiang85]

5% doesn’t seem worth it in most cases. Say someone buys a £60 ticket. They get £3 back!

That's still a meal at home or half a pint of beer in the pub, I'd claim it

 

[sprinterguy]

That's still a meal at home or half a pint of beer in the pub, I'd claim it

Half a pint?! You're being ripped off there.

This is where I don't understand why older stock seems to have some sort of advantage over more modern units, which I would assume are lighter / weight distribution is better.
Perhaps it's a matter of physics, or just a matter of effort - that nobody has really bothered to clear Voyagers / Meridians of higher speeds as it's not usual for them to take that route.

The general trend has been for rolling stock, especially powered vehicles, to become heavier over time: Larger engines (Though this has been partially counteracted by improved engine efficiency over the past thirty years), more stringent crashworthiness standards and additional mod-cons such as air conditioning equipment adding to the weight. Plus the 125mph capable Voyagers are a very different beast, with far more powerful engines, etc, to 75mph Sprinters.

 

[sprinterguy]

With XC, I believe it is very much the case that they would rather not have the extra stock and face increased track access charges, rather they would sooner cram everyone in to as few coaches as possible. Their twitter feed is a constant refrain of "we use all the rolling stock available to us" which is the phrase they will continue to hide behind. It's ridiculous, unfair on passengers and staff. They have barely enough to cover the current diagrams: 29 x 170 sets and 25 are needed to facilitate the Mon-Fri timetable i believe. Take out any on reps, wheel flats etc and then suddenly we have 2 cars instead of 3 cars appearing. But again, they would rather this than than extra access charges, stabling/maintenence costs at Tyseley etc.

I'm not sure there's been much, if any, appropriate diesel stock become available during the tenure of the original Crosscountry franchise, and the current direct award is really too short to see any real change. We might see some improvement under the new direct award which I believe is currently being negotiated, as there is more suitable stock up for grabs in the near future.

Though of course Crosscountry were hamstrung by the terms they originally agreed with the DfT at the start of the franchise, which doesn't encourage the procurement of additional rolling stock above the terms of the franchise agreement regardless of passenger growth due to the potential negative effects on the annual subsidy profile or premium payments agreed with the DfT. It's a pity that the 'SEATS' programme of timetable improvements originally earmarked to be implemented in December 2017 was so vociferously shouted down by peripheral interest groups, as that would at least have been a concerted effort to squeeze a quart from a pint pot with the existing assets.

 

[daveymilo]

Senior Conductor to Train Manager is far from an upgrade especially on XC - the train managers would die for the senior conductor's conditions and taking Sundays into account the wages aren't too different!

My thoughts exactly... LOL Upgrade!!!
Just to add the 3 car capacity of a 170 is not that far off from a 4 car voyager.

 

[TheBigD]

My thoughts exactly... LOL Upgrade!!!
Just to add the 3 car capacity of a 170 is not that far off from a 4 car voyager.

As currently configured a 3 car XC 170 has 2 more seats than a 4 car XC Voyager, 202 vs 200. There's 19 more standard seats in the 3 car 170 but 17 less 1st class seats.