Cross Country HST withdrawals?

[HamworthyGoods]

Well, they'll still be operating now. They will probably relish a new contract.

HST maintenance is dead at Laira after this year, they have 802s instead to focus on.

 

[yorksrob]

HST maintenance is dead at Laira after this year, they have 802s instead to focus on.

"After this year" being the operative word. Things are still ongoing and can be extended if the half-wit government can be made to see sense.

 

[daodao]

Well, they'll still be operating now. They will probably relish a new contract.

The most appropriate destination by the end of 2023 for all the HSTs currently operating on Britain's railways, whether in England or Scotland, is the scrapyard.

 

[yorksrob]

The most appropriate destination by the end of 2023 for all the HSTs currently operating on Britain's railways, whether in England or Scotland, is the scrapyard.

Meaningless nonsense unless you have adequate stock to replace them (not DFT fantasies about making less stock cater for twice the number of passengers, and other such fairy tales).

 

[daodao]

Meaningless nonsense unless you have adequate stock to replace them (not DFT fantasies about making less stock cater for twice the number of passengers, and other such fairy tales).

The DfT are not fantasists. XC could free up some Voyagers to replace their HSTs by withdrawing from certain non-core routes/services, e,g. Birmingham to Manchester could be operated with emus run by another operator.

 

[yorksrob]

The DfT are not fantasists. XC could free up some Voyagers to replace their HSTs by withdrawing from certain non-core routes/services, e,g. Birmingham to Manchester could be operated with emus run by another operator.

And leaving other routes in the lurch, causing overcrowding and making the railway less likely to generate revenue.

The DfT are in la la land.

 

[GoneSouth]

The most appropriate destination by the end of 2023 for all the HSTs currently operating on Britain's railways, whether in England or Scotland, is the scrapyard.

I can’t travel from Bristol to York on one that’s parked waiting to be scrapped. What do you suggest should replace it.

 

[Annetts key]

The DfT are in la la land.

The DfT are not fit for purpose.

 

[yorksrob]

The DfT are not fit for purpose.

Very true.

 

[Mikey C]

The trouble is Labour are in an awkward position. They wanted more, deeper and longer Covid restrictions, so it’s very hard for them to oppose cuts without being shot down.

It’s one for Conservative backbenchers really, but how many of them care about rail services? Many of the said backbenchers know they’re going be out of a job in two years anyway.

In general, it's perfectly normal for opposition parties to "have their cake and eat it" though. Surely there's political capital if train lengths will be shrunk or services cut, especially if the blame can be put on the government? You're having to stand because of the X party.

That's what I'd do if I was an opposition politician (of whatever party).,

 

[JonathanH]

"After this year" being the operative word. Things are still ongoing and can be extended if the half-wit government can be made to see sense.

The decision to withdraw the CrossCountry and GWR HSTs has been made. It is presumably baked into contracts. Like it or not that just isn't going to be reversed.

What alternative approach is there to cut the costs that the HSTs represent?

In general, it's perfectly normal for opposition parties to "have their cake and eat it" though. Surely there's political capital if train lengths will be shrunk or services cut, especially if the blame can be put on the government? You're having to stand because of the X party.

That's what I'd do if I was an opposition politician (of whatever party).,

It is simply not a big enough issue for the opposition parties, and the government can simply point to the reduction in revenue to justify the decisions.

CrossCountry themselves have pointed out that they can manage without the HSTs, because at the times when their most lucrative passengers used to travel, demand is now much less.

I can’t travel from Bristol to York on one that’s parked waiting to be scrapped. What do you suggest should replace it.

The same timetable will run. CrossCountry will have to aim to run their four and five car Voyagers on the most appropriate services.

 

[yorksrob]

The decision to withdraw the CrossCountry and GWR HSTs has been made. It is presumably baked into contracts. Like it or not that just isn't going to be reversed.

What alternative approach is there to cut the costs that the HSTs represent?
It is simply not a big enough issue for the opposition parties, and the government can simply point to the reduction in revenue to justify the decisions.

CrossCountry themselves have pointed out that they can manage without the HSTs.

Costs are immaterial if the state desires to run a train service.

If the infrastructure is in place, contracts can be made to use it. To say otherwise is to be stooge to the authorities who want us to believe that it is a fete accomplis.

Let it be reiterated, the decision not yo continue adequate rolling dtock is entirely due to the decisions of the Government.

 

[JonathanH]

If the infrastructure is in place, contracts can be made to use it. To say otherwise is to be stooge to the authorities who want us to believe that it is a fete accomplis.

Yes, but as HamworthyGoods pointed out, it is going to be removed to allow different rolling stock to be maintained, so it is a fete-a-complis.

To turn it on its head, what action do you think could happen to reverse the decision, noting that the run down of the HSTs appears to already be underway?

Have you written to your MP, or a local Councillor, or encouraged one of your colleagues with a labour MP to write to theirs?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yes, but as HamworthyGoods pointed out, it is going to be removed to allow different rolling stock to be maintained, so it is a fete-a-complis.

To turn it on its head, what action do you think could happen to reverse the decision, noting that the run down of the HSTs appears to already be underway?

Have you written to your MP, or a local Councillor, or encouraged one of your colleagues with a labour MP to write to theirs?

Indeed, and turning back on a supply chain for outdated equipment isn’t necessarily as easy as the OP makes out. The company may well not be interested in supplying a small number of parts so restarting the status quo often isn’t an option.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, but as HamworthyGoods pointed out, it is going to be removed to allow different rolling stock to be maintained, so it is a fete-a-complis.

To turn it on its head, what action do you think could happen to reverse the decision, noting that the run down of the HSTs appears to already be underway?

Have you seen Laira ? It had rakes of GW HST's sitting there for years after they were withdrawn from service.

To say there isn't room for the XC HST's is a complete red herring.

To reverse the decision ? Government order the company to run the train service required

Indeed, and turning back on a supply chain for outdated equipment isn’t necessarily as easy as the OP makes out. The company may well not be interested in supplying a small number of parts so restarting the status quo often isn’t an option.

If they want money, they'll make.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If they want money, they'll make.

As someone who deals with this for a living on the railway we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Manufacturers aren’t interested in small orders of obsolete parts - look at the issues getting spares for 16x DMUs that both GWR and Chiltern are experiencing.

 

[yorksrob]

As someone who deals with this for a living on the railway we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Manufacturers aren’t interested in small orders of obsolete parts - look at the issues getting spares for 16x DMUs that both GWR and Chiltern are experiencing.

Then get into 3d printing.

Manufacturers have been happy to produce parts up to this point. Why the sudden change ?

 

[JonathanH]

Have you seen Laira ? It had rakes of GW HST's sitting there for years after they were withdrawn from service.

Yes, Laira is a large depot, but if money is being spent on making it suitable for maintaining 802s, that could quite easily mean that a key part of the depot, which is integral to servicing HSTs, needs to be reconfigured for servicing the 802 fleet.

To reverse the decision ? Government order the company to run the train service required

The government is looking to manage the cost of the service down. What trigger is going to change that?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Then get into 3d printing.

Manufacturers have been happy to produce parts up to this point. Why the sudden change ?

Because they have been after an excuse to stop supplying those parts as not financially beneficial for them. The ending of the contracts gives them an excuse to get out of that.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, Laira is a large depot, but if money is being spent on making it suitable for maintaining 802s, that could quite easily mean that a key part of the depot, which is integral to servicing HSTs, needs to be reconfigured for servicing the 802 fleet.


The government is looking to manage the cost of the service down. What trigger is going to change that?

The government are wrong but can always change their mind

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Have you seen Laira ? It had rakes of GW HST's sitting there for years after they were withdrawn from service.

To say there isn't room for the XC HST's is a complete red herring.

You are confusing shed space with sidings to store rolling stock.
Where the GW HSTs were sitting was not in the shed but in the yard. Maintenance is not done outside in the yard but inside over a pit. That space in the shed previously used for HST maintenance will now be used for 802 maintenance.

 

[yorksrob]

Because they have been after an excuse to stop supplying those parts as not financially beneficial for them. The ending of the contracts gives them an excuse to get out of that.

Then there will be a smaller contractor wanting business. Alternatively shouldn't the railway industry be making its own parts, rather than relying on the vaguaries of "the market".

You are confusing shed space with sidings to store rolling stock.
Where the GW HSTs were sitting was not in the shed but in the yard. Maintenance is not done outside in the yard but inside over a pit. That space in the shed previously used for HST maintenance will now be used for 802 maintenance.

And what are all of these new trains coming in replacing the HST's ? I'm fascinated to know

 

[Iskra]

GC might take them? Both Arriva, they used to run HST's and they could be maintained at Heaton or Neville Hill (possibly)...

 

[JonathanH]

The government are wrong but can always change their mind

Yes, but you aren't answering the question about what you think is going to make them change their mind (and it has been pointed out that it is too late anyway).

The state of CrossCountry trains just isn't an electoral issue. I agree it is important to some people, but there are many other things that are more important to more people.

And what are all of these new trains coming in replacing the HST's ? I'm fascinated to know

There aren't any.

CrossCountry probably needs a coherent plan for its future, but retaining HSTs, perhaps unfortunately, isn't part of it.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Then there will be a smaller contractor wanting business. Alternatively shouldn't the railway industry be making its own parts, rather than relying on the vaguaries of "the market".



And what are all of these new trains coming in replacing the HST's ? I'm fascinated to know

It’s class 80x trains which will now have a different maintenance schedule including increased maintenance at Laira to improve availability.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, but you aren't answering the question about what you think is going to make them change their mind (and it has been pointed out that it is too late anyway).

The state of CrossCountry trains just isn't an electoral issue. I agree it is important to some people, but there are many other things that are more important to more people.

CrossCountry probably needs a coherent plan for its future, but retaining HSTs, perhaps unfortunately, isn't part of it.

They ought to want a railway generating more revenue (yes, I know they don't because they're half-wits, but I'm role playing that we have a Government capable of governing).

It’s class 80x trains which will now have a different maintenance schedule including increased maintenance at Laira to improve availability.

And those 80x trains have co-existed with HST's at Laira for years, so come up with a real reason please.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

GC might take them? Both Arriva, they used to run HST's and they could be maintained at Heaton or Neville Hill (possibly)...

See the comments about restarting a supply chain.

Then add in training for engineering staff at a depot which will have lapsed competency as it’s been some time since they were maintained - you’d be surprised how quickly with staff turn over knowledge goes.

Then retrain traincrew at GC on HSTs and you’ll see how complex it is. If GC wants some extra stock they’d do better taking on the ex EMR 180s.

HSTs have served the railway very well but the industry as a whole now accepts their time is up.

They ought to want a railway generating more revenue (yes, I know they don't because they're half-wits, but I'm role playing that we have a Government capable of governing).



And those 80x trains have co-existed with HST's at Laira for years, so come up with a real reason please.

OK here’s the real reason, 802 maintenance wasn’t previously done at Laira it now will be! I explained this in a post above, it’s quite simple. By increasing the amount of 802 exams at Laira the fleet availability can be changed to reduce the current amount of downtime of 802s at North Pole

 

[Iskra]

See the comments about restarting a supply chain.

Then add in training for engineering staff at a depot which will have lapsed competency as it’s been some time since they were maintained - you’d be surprised how quickly with staff turn over knowledge goes.

Then retrain traincrew at GC on HSTs and you’ll see how complex it is. If GC wants some extra stock they’d do better taking on the ex EMR 180s.

HSTs have served the railway very well but the industry as a whole now accepts their time is up.

Does more 180's solve the problem of unreliable 180's though? Can GC afford to expand their fleet without gaining any additional revenue from that expansion? Would redundant HST's be cheaper than 180's?

I'm not saying you're wrong though, the tide does seem to be turning against them and quickly.

 

[yorksrob]

See the comments about restarting a supply chain.

Then add in training for engineering staff at a depot which will have lapsed competency as it’s been some time since they were maintained - you’d be surprised how quickly with staff turn over knowledge goes.

Then retrain traincrew at GC on HSTs and you’ll see how complex it is. If GC wants some extra stock they’d do better taking on the ex EMR 180s.

HSTs have served the railway very well but the industry as a whole now accepts their time is up.



OK here’s the real reason, 802 maintenance wasn’t previously done at Laira it now will be! I explained this in a post above

Well tough. Do the 802 maintenance where it used to be.

 

[JonathanH]

They ought to want a railway generating more revenue (yes, I know they don't because they're half-wits, but I'm role playing that we have a Government capable of governing).

Growing revenue involves more risk than cutting costs. Increasing costs but not generating more revenue means more money from the Treasury.

The government essentially just sets the budget. They haven't ordered the removal of HSTs, just identified that the DfT can't have any more money this year than it had last year. It will be operators and the DfT who have to find ways of meeting this requirement.

I dont disagree with you that the government are struggling to make the right decisions.