Cross Country HST withdrawals?

[HamworthyGoods]

Well tough. Do the 802 maintenance where it used to be.

You are missing the point, by moving some more 802 maintenance to Laira the amount of time of the fleet sat down for maintenance elsewhere can be reduced. This allows an increase in availability of 802s to help remove GWR HSTs from service!

The GWR HST rundown is nearly over months in, during that time traincrew training has already switch to 80x training. Knowledge in 80x is fast reducing, the decision has been made.

Does more 180's solve the problem of unreliable 180's though? Can GC afford to expand their fleet without gaining any additional revenue from that expansion? Would redundant HST's be cheaper than 180's?

I'm not saying you're wrong though, the tide does seem to be turning against them and quickly.

Anything with that amount of traincrew training is unlikely to be affordable/deliverable for an open access operator sadly.

 

[JonathanH]

Well tough. Do the 802 maintenance where it used to be.

That isn't straightforward when the sphere of operation of the 802s is moving away from where they are currently maintained, and it has been recognised that the maintenance can be improved by moving it to Laira.

 

[yorksrob]

Growing revenue involves more risk than cutting costs. Increasing costs but not generating more revenue means more money from the Treasury.

The government essentially just sets the budget. They haven't ordered the removal of HSTs, just identified that the DfT can't have any more money this year than it had last year. It will be operators and the DfT who have to find ways of meeting this requirement.

I dont disagree with you that the government are struggling to make the right decisions.

Indeed. They are certainly struggling to make the right decisions. Hopefully we can agree that this is the real reason for the withdrawal of HST's, rather than spurious arguments about Laira depot.

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed. They are certainly struggling to make the right decisions. Hopefully we can agree that this is the real reason for the withdrawal of HST's, rather than spurious arguments about Laira depot.

Presumably we can also agree that there is no going back on the decision now?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Indeed. They are certainly struggling to make the right decisions. Hopefully we can agree that this is the real reason for the withdrawal of HST's, rather than spurious arguments about Laira depot.

The withdrawal of HSTs is to meet budgets set by DfT.

To deliver this budget without cutting services GWR needs to remove its HST fleet from traffic as they are their most expensive fleet.

To deliver the changed requirement for 802s including a shift away from their current home depot at North Pole more maintenance needs to be done at Laira. This also avoids redundancies there. This means the space in the shed at Laira is no longer available for HST maintenance!

 

[yorksrob]

Presumably we can also agree that there is no going back on the decision now?

No. The infrastructure is in place and can be brought back, by diktat if necessary

The withdrawal of HSTs is to meet budgets set by DfT.

To deliver this budget without cutting services GWR needs to remove its HST fleet from traffic as they are their most expensive fleet.

To deliver the changed requirement for 802s including a shift away from their current home depot at North Pole more maintenance needs to be done at Laira. This also avoids redundancies there. This means the space in the shed at Laira is no longer available for HST maintenance!

Political budgets from a government with no mandate.

Perhaps its about stringing things along until the "Government" can be got rid of.

 

[JonathanH]

No. The infrastructure is in place and can be brought back, by diktat if necessary

There isn't going to be diktat. What makes you think there is any chance of one?

I don't understand what your argument is. The HSTs will be long gone by the time there is a change of political party in government. Even if there was an election next week, and a complete wipe out of the conservative party in parliament, it wouldn't save the HSTs.

 

[AndrewE]

As the thread is talking about XC HSTs (and why they can't be maintained at Laira or wherever) why can't they be cycled through Edinburgh where I imagine Scotrail have an ongoing (and possibly expandable) maintenance capability?
It really does seem crazy to scrap off usable rolling stock when the NE-SW / XC axis is so overcrowded with no obvious way of relieving it.

Maybe the red-wall seats have now been written off, and the services in the rest of the country are being decimated to try to generate a margin to allow tax cuts in an attempt to protect the "Blue wall" against the Lib Dems

 

[yorksrob]

There isn't going to be diktat. What makes you think there is any chance of one?

I don't understand what your argument is. The HSTs will be long gone by the time there is a change of political party in government. Even if there was an election next week, and a complete wipe out of the conservative party in parliament, it wouldn't save the HSTs.

The hope is that someone along the chain will see sense.

Your argument is that the Tory party is incompetent and unfit to govern, but we can't get rid of them for a while.

 

[43096]

You are missing the point, by moving some more 802 maintenance to Laira the amount of time of the fleet sat down for maintenance elsewhere can be reduced. This allows an increase in availability of 802s to help remove GWR HSTs from service!

Presumably there is a cost saving in switching maintenance to Laira as well, as GWR won't be paying Hitachi for the ****-poor service they currently get (at presumably sky-high prices).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The hope is that someone along the chain will see sense.

Your argument is that the Tory party is incompetent and unfit to govern, but we can't get rid of them for a while.

A change of government is unlikely to immediately alter the budget available to the railways. Railways have never been a vote winner.

No. The infrastructure is in place and can be brought back, by diktat if necessary

The HST rundown is already well under way, we have already reached the point with traincrew traction knowledge that to reverse this decision would bring huge financial cost.

 

[yorksrob]

A change of government is unlikely to immediately alter the budget available to the railways. Railways have never been a vote winner.



The HST rundown is already well under way, we have already reached the point with traincrew traction knowledge that to reverse this decision would bring huge financial cost.

Yet we "the public" have only been made aware of this in the last few weeks. An incompetent lieing government too frit to offer its policy for public discussion.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yet we "the public" have only been made aware of this in the last few weeks. An incompetent lieing government too frit to offer its policy for public discussion.

I’m not sure I remember any government in recent times giving rolling stock policy for public discussion!

BR traditionally withdrew older rolling stock at times of reduced budgets - think the 6REPs and 2HAPs on South West Division. 309 Clacton Units on GE etc what’s the difference here?

 

[Annetts key]

OK here’s the real reason, 802 maintenance wasn’t previously done at Laira it now will be! I explained this in a post above, it’s quite simple. By increasing the amount of 802 exams at Laira the fleet availability can be changed to reduce the current amount of downtime of 802s at North Pole

Is Stoke Gifford not capable of maintaining 802s?

 

[JonathanH]

Is Stoke Gifford not capable of maintaining 802s?

Of course it is, but it isn't in Plymouth.

There is an advantage of having a maintenance base in the south west, both from a workforce perspective avoiding redundancies, and being closer to where the trains are operating.

 

[bramling]

The hope is that someone along the chain will see sense.

Your argument is that the Tory party is incompetent and unfit to govern, but we can't get rid of them for a while.

That is, unfortunately, pretty much the reality of things. One does wonder how history might have played out had May won a reasonable majority in 2017, but we are where we are.

My own view, FWIW, is that withdrawing the HSTs is defensible, however they should certainly be being replaced with something else. For GWR replacing with ex TFW 158s would be fine, and for XC either the spare 221s or 222s.

 

[JonathanH]

My own view, FWIW, is that withdrawing the HSTs is defensible, however they should certainly be being replaced with something else. For GWR replacing with ex TFW 158s would be fine, and for XC either the spare 221s or 222s.

It has been explained numerous times that GWR have spare 5-car 80x which are sufficient to replace the HSTs once staff training is complete.

It appears that there are more issues than the forum appreciates about how easy it is for CrossCountry to increase its fleet of 22x units.

 

[Annetts key]

There is an advantage of having a maintenance base in the south west, both from a workforce perspective avoiding redundancies, and being closer to where the trains are operating.

I’m not saying there isn’t. But at the same time, Stoke Gifford is a darn site closer to Plymouth than North Pole.

Barton Hill in Bristol, where some maintenance is done on Voyagers, is a converted carriage and wagon works.

And really, the actual argument should be this government’s incompetence in not ordering suitable new rolling stock to replace the regional trains in the Western route and to replace the mix of stock used by CrossCountry.

Voyagers will not last forever.

In terms of CrossCountry trains and capacity. Whenever I travel on them, it’s unusual to see many empty seats. Not that the government or the DfT cares about this. They have decided not to fund the railways with the amount of money that they currently need. Hence cuts are happening everywhere. Regardless of if it’s a good idea or not.

It has been explained numerous times that GWR have spare 5-car 80x which are sufficient to replace the HSTs once staff training is complete.

I’m not sure that “spare” is the correct description. These were supposed to be part of the so called “super fast” services to London.

A new, super-fast third hourly service will run at the busiest times of day, running non-stop between Bristol Parkway and Paddington and allowing customers to travel from capital to capital as quickly as 1 hour 42 minutes, 17 minutes faster than today.

(link)

However, the choice was made to cut most of this so called flagship service.

And GWR keep using some of the five cars to run services from the West/South West to Bristol instead of to London Paddington in place of a longer set. Then kick the passengers off them when they terminate them at B.T.M. Then inform the passengers to change to another train, the other train being a longer formation that is going to London.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I’m not saying there isn’t. But at the same time, Stoke Gifford is a darn site closer to Plymouth than North Pole.

Barton Hill in Bristol, where some maintenance is done on Voyagers, is a converted carriage and wagon works.

And really, the actual argument should be this government’s incompetence in not ordering suitable new rolling stock to replace the regional trains in the Western route and to replace the mix of stock used by CrossCountry.

Voyagers will not last forever.

In terms of CrossCountry trains and capacity. Whenever I travel on them, it’s unusual to see many empty seats. Not that the government or the DfT cares about this. They have decided not to fund the railways with the amount of money that they currently need. Hence cuts are happening everywhere. Regardless of if it’s a good idea or not.


I’m not sure that “spare” is the correct description. These were supposed to be part of the so called “super fast” services to London.


(link)

However, the choice was made to cut most of this so called flagship service.

And GWR keep using some of the five cars to run services from the West/South West to Bristol instead of to London Paddington in place of a longer set. Then kick the passengers off them when they terminate them at B.T.M. Then inform the passengers to change to another train, the other train being a longer formation that is going to London.

People on here seem to be overlooking that the other option to cutting costs by withdrawing fleets and redeploying other fleets through tactical changes would have been to withdrawn the same fleets but through service cuts.

The budget railway have for the next financial year starting in 3 weeks time is the budget, that isn’t going to change regardless of any political inputs. Same as when BR had a budget cut there was never a sudden reversal. It is doubtful any government would have found a magic money tree in that short period of time.

The May 23 timetable changes page shows TOCs like Northern are having to make service cuts to make these savings. XC and GWR have been very shrewd in trying to protect the overall train service and in some areas fill gaps in service. XC for example could have just lifted the HST worked services out the timetable which would have led to some gaps of 2-3 hours at Plymouth.

 

[bramling]

It has been explained numerous times that GWR have spare 5-car 80x which are sufficient to replace the HSTs once staff training is complete.

It’s okay as a short-term solution, but the 5-cars are only spare because the extra Bristol services have gone. I can’t remember if they ever got as far as appearing in a timetable or running, however really they count as a cut in themselves, especially if their absence is causing additional crowding on the Bath route.

In the longer term, it won’t take too much growth in demand for this to cause issues, though presumably the TFW 158s would still be available.

It appears that there are more issues than the forum appreciates about how easy it is for CrossCountry to increase its fleet of 22x units.

This does seem to boil down to £.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I’m not sure that “spare” is the correct description. These were supposed to be part of the so called “super fast” services to London.

They are spare as DfT who set the Train Service Requirement for its TOCs have decided they no longer wish GWR to provide that service group for the forseable.

This does seem to boil down to £.

All of this boils down to £, there is less available in real terms this financial year to the railway than last.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It appears that there are more issues than the forum appreciates about how easy it is for CrossCountry to increase its fleet of 22x units.

I think there's one issue, and one alone - the DfT's unwillingness to fund it. XC have already proved a microfleet as not an operational issue, as the HSTs are one.

 

[JonathanH]

I think there's one issue, and one alone - the DfT's unwillingness to fund it. XC have already proved a microfleet as not an operational issue, as the HSTs are one.

Yes, but that funding is not just paying lease costs. It is depot capacity, traincrew, timetabling, adapting the 22x for Cross Country use, training for 222s, extra paths for getting trains off depots, revised platforming and no doubt many other factors.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It’s okay as a short-term solution, but the 5-cars are only spare because the extra Bristol services have gone. I can’t remember if they ever got as far as appearing in a timetable or running, however really they count as a cut in themselves, especially if their absence is causing additional crowding on the Bath route.

There will have to be some sustained growth over May 2019 levels get to that situation on the Bristol route.

2+8 HSTs seated 471, IETs in 9 car formation (which is the standard formation on the Avon route) seat 650.

Services were half-hourly then and are half-hourly now but have and additional 358 seats per hour compared to pre May 2019. That is a lot of extra capacity which often seems to be missed.

Appreciate this is going slightly off topic from the XC HSTs but the two are intrinsically linked as the two English fleets share the same maintenance depot at Laira.

 

[43096]

It has been explained numerous times that GWR have spare 5-car 80x which are sufficient to replace the HSTs once staff training is complete.

On paper, yes. But given that HSTs have covered several times for the handful of diagrams already cut over to 80x operation, it will be interesting to see if it works in practice - 80x availability has never really been as good as it ought to be.

Personally, I reckon there is an ulterior motive behind the re-forming of more 2-car 158s. In theory it is to provide more 4-car sets on the Pompey road, but it also gives an easy get out if short of 80x sets: short form a Pompey and kick the freed up Sprinter out vice 80x.

 

[Annetts key]

There will have to be some sustained growth over May 2019 levels get to that situation on the Bristol route.

Actually, if you were looking to cut services in the West, it would be some of the 80X services to London Paddington. Of all the trains I travel on, some of those are the ones that are carting the most “fresh air” around.

Myself, I would be aiming to replace all the Voyagers on CrossCountry. But then the question is, what with. Because as I said before, the railway is a mess.

2+8 HSTs seated 471, IETs in 9 car formation (which is the standard formation on the Avon route) seat 650.

So why do I keep finding the 80X services to London that I am on, being the five car sets?

 

[daodao]

Myself, I would be aiming to replace all the Voyagers on CrossCountry.

Are you mad? The Voyagers are just over 20 years old and have 15-20 years of working life left, whereas the HSTs are only fit for the scrapyard. The UK is one of the poorest countries in Western Europe (bar Portugal) and can't afford to discard usable assets.

 

[RobShipway]

Actually, if you were looking to cut services in the West, it would be some of the 80X services to London Paddington. Of all the trains I travel on, some of those are the ones that are carting the most “fresh air” around.

Myself, I would be aiming to replace all the Voyagers on CrossCountry. But then the question is, what with. Because as I said before, the railway is a mess.


So why do I keep finding the 80X services to London that I am on, being the five car sets?

Because, it maybe a case that on that service GWR have analysed that all is required is the 326 seat class 800/0 when it comes to passenger numbers. But it also depends where you are travelling from as well.

For instance, times when I have travelled both too and from Hereford or Great Malvern, when in the past these have been HST service especially of a Saturday morning before 9am, you would be lucky if the first four coaches where full of passengers of an 8 coach train. Likewise the same was true travelling in the afternoon from Great Malvern to Reading.

The above was back in 2017, so was pre - covid. I would expect the numbers even though it is now almost 3 years since Covid struck, still to be lower than 2017 where an HST was used, you could have used just a three car class 166 plus a two car 165 on the services mentioned above with still enough seats for all passengers on the train.

If the five car train you are finding is from Penzance or Bristol though, then I am surprised but not shocked. As again, it maybe such that someone at GWR has analysed that not more than 300 seats of the 650 seats of a 9 car class 802/1 are filled, then it is more than likely that they would be using a five car class 802/0.

Are you mad? The Voyagers are just over 20 years old and have 15-20 years of working life left, whereas the HSTs are only fit for the scrapyard. The UK is one of the poorest countries in Western Europe (bar Portugal) and can't afford to discard usable assets.

Whilst I agree with your comment, sillier things have be done with withdrawing trains that have not reached twenty years old or scrapping trains that this year would have been 26 years old and only got 22 years of service out of them.

 

[irish_rail]

You are confusing shed space with sidings to store rolling stock.
Where the GW HSTs were sitting was not in the shed but in the yard. Maintenance is not done outside in the yard but inside over a pit. That space in the shed previously used for HST maintenance will now be used for 802 maintenance.

But the shed roads where power car maintenance is done will be too short to fit even a 5 car 802 won't they? Admittedly I'm going off memory, but I reckon the power car maintenance shed roads can only hold about 5 power cars each, so those roads will just be redundant now. There is space to maintain a smallish fleet of HSTs at Laira in my view IF there was a will to do so. Which sadly there isn't. There is in Scotland, which proves spare parts etc must be available, its just you are only allowed them if you are Scottish and not English. Its all way too political for my liking.

So why do I keep finding the 80X services to London that I am on, being the five car sets?

I believe the plan is to get all the 9 cars onto Bristol etc route to limit the short forms to the Wofe service by making it fully 10 car again , though I might be wrong. But I can see Laira looking after predominantly 5 car sets so it will inevitably lead to a return of 10s instead of 9s to the far south west , freeing up the more popular 9 car sets for where the directors etc actually travel (to and from Swindon on the Swansea and Bristol routes). Its funny that whenever you get into conversation with staff / management about the fleet make up, no one ever says they prefer the 10 car set up over a 9 car set
....

The HST rundown is already well under way, we have already reached the point with traincrew traction knowledge that to reverse this decision would bring huge financial cost.

Interesting, in what way? No one and I mean no one at any depot I'm aware of has "signed off" HSTs yet. So drivers and guards all still competent. Similarly on XC side they continue to train drivers on HSTs as we speak!!! There is currently Plymouth drivers on a course.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

CrossCountry themselves have pointed out that they can manage without the HSTs, because at the times when their most lucrative passengers used to travel, demand is now much less.

Really??? So why is there a lot of overcrowding reports? Sorry but I don't think they're gonna manage - they should have kept them going till a suitable replacement can be found!