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Cross Country to operate Leeds-Glasgow via Settle services using HSTs?

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Doctor Fegg

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They may as well go the whole hog then and make it a Nottingham - Glasgow as it used to be. Operate this instead of the Northern Nottingham - Leeds and send it via Wakefield Westgate as original was planned for the Northern service. An HST gives you substantially faster running which will seriously cut the Nottingham - Leeds time as an added bonus.
I wonder how much of a Corby-Glasgow market there still is. Certainly a big thing in the 80s.
 

hexagon789

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No it won’t. A 195 accelerates a hell of a lot quicker than an HST and due to line speed can both achieve the same top speed.
XC don't have any 195s though...

Even a 5 car HST? Also, I wasn't aware that 195's can do 110mph.
Is there a huge amount of 110 Carlisle-Glasgow? Back in 2002 iirc there was only one such section and I believe the EPS speeds just went on top of the conventional ones without changing them.

Of course the HST offers a superior travel experience to a 195, no contest. And it's academic anyway because - XC have no 195s!
 

Bigman

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In terms of 110mph running, I was thinking more of the stretches between Nottingham and Leeds on MML and ECML metals.
 

py_megapixel

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Are they planning to call at all of the small stations on the Settle-Carlisle line? I'd assume not if HSTs are going to be the traction
 

The Planner

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In terms of 110mph running, I was thinking more of the stretches between Nottingham and Leeds on MML and ECML metals.
Don't fall into that trap. 100mph vs 110mph is 3.3 seconds a mile. 18 miles to get you a minute.
Are they planning to call at all of the small stations on the Settle-Carlisle line? I'd assume not if HSTs are going to be the traction
Considering it is a back of a fag packet idea at the moment, I doubt they have a clue.
 

Neptune

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XC don't have any 195s though...
I am fully aware of that fact but as the post was referring to the Leeds - Nottingham section where we were told that HST’s would be ‘substantially faster’ (18 miles to save a minute as it turns out and I don’t believe there’s even 18 miles worth of 110mph running between Leeds and Nottingham) I was using the current stock as a comparison.
 

ABB125

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I think this is the third time in 3 weeks now.

Why is everyone obsessed with reducing Leeds stations limited capacity. There is not the room to terminate them and either stable them for 65 minutes or shunt them out. We’ve got one thread suggesting Brighton through services using the Thameslink core to Leeds to consider now as well so NR had better get busy looking at widening the station throat and adding several new platforms.
I suppose the XC service could be chopped at York instead of Leeds. Or run to Hull instead, as has been suggested in the past.
 

30907

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It won’t compete with the existing ECML service on time.
I reckon 3 1/2 hours should be possible if it can be pathed north of Carlisle, especially if 75 is allowed on the S and C. That's half an hour quicker than via Edinburgh.
2 units, 3 tpd?

Not via Settle. They will have run Leeds - Newcastle - Carlisle - Edinburgh at start of service when the line is shut via Berwick.
Fairly certain they have run via Settle before, though it is not the usual diversion as you say. Can't remember the circumstances, but some sort of emergency.
 

swt_passenger

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So all in all it looks like:
a. Ex West Coast Voyagers will almost certainly replace the HSTs on the main XC SW/NE corridor, fleet standardisation.
b. They’re not sure yet what to do with the superseded HSTs, but this is a slim possibility.

I doubt maintenance of HST capability at Laira will have any relevance to the decision.
 

D6130

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Why is everyone obsessed with reducing Leeds stations limited capacity. There is not the room to terminate them and either stable them for 65 minutes or shunt them out. We’ve got one thread suggesting Brighton through services using the Thameslink core to Leeds to consider now as well so NR had better get busy looking at widening the station throat and adding several new platforms.
Perhaps they could run through to/from York........using the pathways of the Northern Blackpool service, which could terminate at/start from Leeds in one of the shorter bay platforms?
 

ABB125

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On that subject, why is it that ‘slim chance’ and ‘fat chance’ mean the same thing?
I think that's one of the strange quirks of the English language - antonyms can actually mean the same thing when coupled to certain other words! For example, a house can simultaneously burn up and burn down. (Schroedinger's house?)
 

30907

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Perhaps they could run through to/from York........using the pathways of the Northern Blackpool service, which could terminate at/start from Leeds in one of the shorter bay platforms?
This relates to the existing XC service. Yes, it should run to York for this reason, but it already has a path.
TBH I think the comfort and capacity of the HST is better on the long distance runs. By all means do this new service but use Voyagers. Big windows for the view, too! :)
Like it or not, XC will want (double) Voyagers on the longer routes so as to standardise the timings.
 

HST43257

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I’d still prefer a 1tp2h LNER express from London to Glasgow, calling at Peterborough, Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds, Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Horton*, Ribblehead*, Kirkby Stephen*, Appleby, Carlisle, Motherwell and Glasgow Central. Only issue is that the path I’ve worked out for it would mean it gets to Carlisle around the same time as the Glasgow Avanti. Not gonna run 1 straight after another so perhaps other destinations.

* = 2-3tpd each, all on different services for different purposes.

Hopefully GBR’s better seat proposal makes Azumas somewhat attractive

XC HSTs can go to ScotRail to get rid of InterCity 158/170 diagrams
 

ABB125

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Yes, I believe it would.

TBH I think the comfort and capacity of the HST is better on the long distance runs. By all means do this new service but use Voyagers. Big windows for the view, too! :)
If you want big windows, use pacers! I'd love a good bit of pacer thrash up the WCML... :D
 

Neptune

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Perhaps they could run through to/from York........using the pathways of the Northern Blackpool service, which could terminate at/start from Leeds in one of the shorter bay platforms?
XC already have a path between Leeds & York. The issue east of Leeds which we’ve visited many times before is the sheer amount of TPE services. Why should XC and/or Northern miss out on that market? XC (Wakefield to York) and Northern (Lancashire/Calder Valley/Bradford to York) also connect a completely different hourly market to York which are well used. TPE connect the same market up to 4 times an hour.

Back on thread, Leeds - Glasgow via the S&C seems on paper an obvious link but it is fraught with complications as has been commented on by several people up thread. You can rule out via G&SW as the time penalty would make it pointless (assuming the suggestion is for the Leeds - Glasgow market which was reasonably buoyant pre-COVID). Can those who suggest increasing S&C line speed to 75mph give evidence that it is possible to just do that by changing the signs and nothing else? How much of the 86 miles from Skipton can actually be raised to 75mph? Do they know or is it just an assumption that it is the whole route? What time saving can realistically be achieved to make the line speed 15mph faster? Can they see a solution to the 30mph sections at Ribblehead and Dent? What regular pathing is available between Leeds & Skipton and which stops can be included? Is the usual suggestion of cutting back the Lancaster and current Carlisle services going to raise its head? Are freight services to be marginalised throughout to accommodate it?

What i find exacerbating is that as usual, a suggestion for a service comes up (via the media for once) and suddenly there are suggestions for extending it already (Nottingham, London, no doubt someone will try and squeeze something down the east Leeds corridor or heaven forbid the Thameslink core) for what seems to be no other reason than ‘because it used to run 40+ years ago’ or ‘everywhere must have a London connection including the most remote stations in Northern England because I’d like to see an Azuma up there and it would be interesting’ or perhaps ‘because I want to see May ‘18‘s timetable fiasco all over again but this time tonnes worse and I can then come on here and rant about how ridiculous it is to run a train across the entire country linking lots of places that don’t have a market’.

I also think this has made people on here sit up more because they see ‘HST’. What if it was ‘Voyager’ or ‘Northern’ or ‘spare 185’s’.

For the record, if such a service was to exist (and I have my doubts) I would think TPE would be best placed to operate it.

It is an interesting proposal but I suspect it won’t get much further than a bit of talk then quietly forgotten (obviously not on here as people still think Northern Connect is going to happen with the exact service proposals that were made in 2016). I am happy to be proved wrong but so long as it isn’t at the detriment of the current markets that should have priority over this kind of service.
 

Halish Railway

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If we have more co-ordinated planning with the introduction of GBR, then would it be a good idea to have one of the first diagrams start at Skipton to operate a morning peak service and take the strain off of northern stopping trains a la Class 180 operating a morning Hebden Bridge to Leeds service.
 

hexagon789

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I am fully aware of that fact but as the post was referring to the Leeds - Nottingham section where we were told that HST’s would be ‘substantially faster’ (18 miles to save a minute as it turns out and I don’t believe there’s even 18 miles worth of 110mph running between Leeds and Nottingham) I was using the current stock as a comparison.
Apologies, but as the thread was about XC...
 

Neptune

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If we have more co-ordinated planning with the introduction of GBR, then would it be a good idea to have one of the first diagrams start at Skipton to operate a morning peak service and take the strain off of northern stopping trains a la Class 180 operating a morning Hebden Bridge to Leeds service.
I suspect this will have far less capacity than the 6 car 331’s that are to operate these services.
 

YorksLad12

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I think this is the third time in 3 weeks now.

Why is everyone obsessed with reducing Leeds stations limited capacity. There is not the room to terminate them and either stable them for 65 minutes or shunt them out. We’ve got one thread suggesting Brighton through services using the Thameslink core to Leeds to consider now as well so NR had better get busy looking at widening the station throat and adding several new platforms.
Which is why I, for one, am treading carefully... ;)

The question for me would be: if you were going to introduce such a service in 2023, why use HSTs? Solely because they're being cascaded? You might as well say 185s, or 68+Mk5a, or even 442s (which I only mention because I don't think I've mentioned them before). Is this a case of rolling stock in search of a route or a route in search of rolling stock?

If you want big windows, use pacers! I'd love a good bit of pacer thrash up the WCML... :D
The most disappointing aspect of new rolling stock, the windows.
 

37424

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Interesting Idea, possible new lease of life for HST's that have had a fair bit of money spent on them, rather than being scrapped with a Voyager cascade.

No need for the Staycation Express, longer distance S&C day trippers over the route transferred to XC, perhaps some Northern services cut back to Skipton, opportunity to develop Glasgow - W. York's market.
 
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irish_rail

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Surely if this happened and it is a big IF, it should be an extension of the Plymouth service , some trains could run Plymouth to Newcastle and some up the s and c to Carlisle and Glasgow.
Laira maintains its HST allocation for XC and passengers on the South West to the north keep a decent standard of train to travel on.
 

HarryL

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Surprised Northerns never considered doing something like this honestly, the Leeds-Settle-Carlisle seems prime for them to exploit as more of a 'premium' line with better trains and amenities, maybe even a first class and the works. Obviously Northerns would need to stop at all the stations so would need suitable trains, but it's a real untapped market in my opinion.
 
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