CrossCountry HST's & Voyagers

[Great_Western]

Today I had a roughly 3 hour trip each way on CrossCountry bettween Newport and Plymouth. The outbound leg was a HST and I'm now sat on a Voyager on the way home. It got me thinking, other than their length, Why do Voyagers get so much bad press on this forum? The HST was bouncy, there was precious little legroom, the seats gave me a bad back before we had even left the station and none of the PIS systems were working. On the other hand, the voyager is comfortable, plenty of legroom, nice ride and has a very pleasant interior ambiance. I can honestly see no reason why anybody would prefer the HST?

 

[PHILIPE]

Today I had a roughly 3 hour trip each way on CrossCountry bettween Newport and Plymouth. The outbound leg was a HST and I'm now sat on a Voyager on the way home. It got me thinking, other than their length, Why do Voyagers get so much bad press on this forum? The HST was bouncy, there was precious little legroom, the seats gave me a bad back before we had even left the station and none of the PIS systems were working. On the other hand, the voyager is comfortable, plenty of legroom, nice ride and has a very pleasant interior ambiance. I can honestly see no reason why anybody would prefer the HST?

Could you see out of a window or just looking at the body of the Voyager ?

 

[221129]

Here we go...:roll::roll:

 

[Mordac]

Vibrations and noise are the big voyager complaint on my part. I did grow to like them after a year of doing Edinburgh to Lancaster. Unlike others, I like their seats, and they feel very nice speeding down the Clyde valley. The VTEC specimens are in much better nick than their XC counterparts IMO.

Some people in this forum and others think a thing from the BR era is superior to new stock. Just witness the tears shed over the 317's demise. I wouldn't say a voyager is as good as an hst, but I don't think they're as bad as some make them out to be either

 

[Darandio]

It just depends what you prefer, some people have different preferences and ideas of what they want, particulary when making a journey of substantial length.

Personally, I don't like the general ambience of a Voyager, the pungent smell in the vestibules, what always seem to be rattling and squeaky seatback tables and in particular the underfloor noise on a longer journey.

Other opinions will vary.

 

[Great_Western]

Could you see out of a window or just looking at the body of the Voyager ?

The thing is when you do get a window seat on a voyager, the window seems considerably bigger.

 

[Mordac]

It just depends what you prefer, some people have different preferences and ideas of what they want, particulary when making a journey of substantial length.

Personally, I don't like the general ambience of a Voyager, the pungent smell in the vestibules, what always seem to be rattling and squeaky seatback tables and in particular the underfloor noise on a longer journey.

Other opinions will vary.

I think part of the reason why I like the VTWC Voyager experience better than XC's is that they use Voyagers on higher speed routes on average. XC has them trundling along some really low speed stretches. I find that their engines hum quite pleasantly at 125mph, but have them go at 60 and they feel worse for some reason. Even the vibrations seem to be more intense at low speed.

 

[221129]

The thing is when you do get a window seat on a voyager, the window seems considerably bigger.

Because it is...

 

[Great_Western]

I think part of the reason why I like the VTWC Voyager experience better than XC's is that they use Voyagers on higher speed routes on average. XC has them trundling along some really low speed stretches. I find that their engines hum quite pleasantly at 125mph, but have them go at 60 and they feel worse for some reason. Even the vibrations seem to be more intense at low speed.

Also remember, the XC voyagers are pushed a lot harder than the VTWC examples, so the levels of maintenance will vary.

 

[221129]

I think part of the reason why I like the VTWC Voyager experience better than XC's is that they use Voyagers on higher speed routes on average. XC has them trundling along some really low speed stretches. I find that their engines hum quite pleasantly at 125mph, but have them go at 60 and they feel worse for some reason. Even the vibrations seem to be more intense at low speed.

That's the same with most stock and engines in general I believe.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As the OP mentions, the size of the Voyagers is an issue. But it isn't just that they're too short, it's also that the space on board is not used efficiently. Every toilet on board is an accessible one, which is great for equality but not so great for capacity. The shop area (disused on XC) is more wasted space, and the tilt profile means that the overhead luggage racks are pathetically small, especially for services where passengers are more likely to have a fair amount of luggage.

 

[221129]

The shop area (disused on XC) is more wasted space

I disagree, providing more much needed luggage space and bike accomodation.

 

[Qwerty133]

I disagree, providing more much needed luggage space and bike accomodation.

I disagree, carrying bikes is a nice to have extra for when there is plenty of capacity, whereas having sufficient passenger accommodation is a necessity.

 

[Polarbear]

Personally, I don't think Voyagers are THAT bad, but for me, they aren't the best train for long distance Inter City services.

For me, a Voyager is fine for a 1 to 2 hour journey as long as;

• It's reasonably well maintained
• The plastic bits are screwed in tightly so they don't vibrate/rattle
• You can get a seat with a "reasonable" view out of the window.
• You can get a seat with legroom (normally the Priority Seats).
• It's not too wedged
• The toilets are working properly

Or is that asking too much...

 

[kevjs]

I think part of the reason why I like the VTWC Voyager experience better than XC's is that they use Voyagers on higher speed routes on average. XC has them trundling along some really low speed stretches. I find that their engines hum quite pleasantly at 125mph, but have them go at 60 and they feel worse for some reason. Even the vibrations seem to be more intense at low speed.

The Meridans are the same, really noticeable trundling into St Pancras behind a stopper... Darn sight more comfortable than the HST's though.

The aisles and toilets being rammed with standing passengers from St Pancras to Market Harbourgh and aisles littered with suitcases and bags people can't fit in the overheads (with the luggage racks overflowing too) are somewhat more problematic.

 

[xc170]

Voyagers get so much dislike on here because they replaced HSTs and loco hauled stock and everything ordered after privatisation has been a terrible mistake, that is the simplified, honest answer.

Also, rose tinted specs are a wonderful thing.

 

[Darandio]

Voyagers get so much dislike on here because they replaced HSTs and loco hauled stock and everything ordered after privatisation has been a terrible mistake, that is the simplified, honest answer.

Also, rose tinted specs are a wonderful thing.

That has little to do with why I don't like them, they just aren't very good*.

*Comment made without spectactles of any kind.

 

[Parallel]

I actually don't hate Voyagers but I prefer the XC HSTs to their Voyagers. I find the seats more comfortable and I think they feel less cramped. Voyagers are good workhorses for XC, but I find the seats uncomfortable, they're also very noisy and have the strange toilet smell.

 

[Skipness]

....... and for somebody who regularly travels west of Exeter I deliberately choose an HST diagram

 

[D1009]

The main reason I prefer the XC HSTs to the Voyagers is that they have far more seats, so you've got a better chance of a window seat or even a table to yourself. The Voyager toilets offend people with an acute sense of smell, and I'm sure efforts have been made to try to mitigate this recently. The other toilet problem is the way they automatically lock themselves out of use if a blockage is detected, which seriously reduces the toilet to passenger numbers ratio. It's arguably more pleasant to travel in a train which has the engines at the ends rather than under the floor, but less train noise means that loud passengers become more of a nuisance.

 

[bramling]

Today I had a roughly 3 hour trip each way on CrossCountry bettween Newport and Plymouth. The outbound leg was a HST and I'm now sat on a Voyager on the way home. It got me thinking, other than their length, Why do Voyagers get so much bad press on this forum? The HST was bouncy, there was precious little legroom, the seats gave me a bad back before we had even left the station and none of the PIS systems were working. On the other hand, the voyager is comfortable, plenty of legroom, nice ride and has a very pleasant interior ambiance. I can honestly see no reason why anybody would prefer the HST?

The HST is longer for a start. Notwithstanding anything else, this is a major benefit in itself. Even 2x 5-car Voyagers don't offer as much capacity as they should due to the large amount of wasted space.

 

[Class 170101]

The thing is when you do get a window seat on a voyager, the window seems considerably bigger.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this.

 

[387star]

Today I had a roughly 3 hour trip each way on CrossCountry bettween Newport and Plymouth. The outbound leg was a HST and I'm now sat on a Voyager on the way home. It got me thinking, other than their length, Why do Voyagers get so much bad press on this forum? The HST was bouncy, there was precious little legroom, the seats gave me a bad back before we had even left the station and none of the PIS systems were working. On the other hand, the voyager is comfortable, plenty of legroom, nice ride and has a very pleasant interior ambiance. I can honestly see no reason why anybody would prefer the HST?

The HST is a better train than the Voyager because

1) No underfloor engine makes a MASSIVE difference to ambience
2) More coaches so less overcrowding which is a lesson well learnt
3) a proper guards van and buffet
4) fresh air blowing in the vestibules and not of the effluent variant which steams out of voyager doors in the hot sun


The original interior was basically perfect apart from the armrests ie well cushioned seats lining up with windows and decent luggage racks and view.... the example you traveled on was not as good as they once were but I am sure the voyagers still have worse leg room at most seats

 

[Clansman]

I prefer the HSTs over the XC Voyagers, simply because they have better legroom, a more open environment, bigger first class seats and window alignment.

I've no problem with the "vibration" people seem to notice, nor the stereotypical "Voyager Smell", all I would say is that if XC can get a proportionate number of tables, and align their seats with windows, then I'd really have nothing to complain about and would gladly travel on them. Virgin Voyagers are a classic example as to what can be achieved with a decent interior, regardless of the train itself. The Meridians prove this as well.

Other than the interior aspect of things, I think the XC Voyagers (with a bit of internal TLC), can easily match it's Virgin counterparts and have a become decent and fit for purpose Intercity DEMUs.

The only downside with the train itself for me, is the lack of capacity. 4 and 5 coaches is way too few to cope with the peak time loads you get around the country on routes they operate.

 

[najaB]

I can honestly see no reason why anybody would prefer the HST?

Some people like rum-n-raisin ice cream, I find the stuff vile. Same principle.

 

[Penmorfa]

The original interior was basically perfect apart from the armrests ie well cushioned seats lining up with windows and decent luggage racks and view.... the example you traveled on was not as good as they once were but I am sure the voyagers still have worse leg room at most seats

Standard class HST seats have never lined up with the windows. The vehicles, like all Mark 3's, were designed so that only first class seats lined up. A penny pinching BR decision we still suffer from today, not only in mark 3's but in many hundreds of DMU's and EMU's.

 

[221129]

3) a proper guards van and buffet

No buffet on an XC HST...

 

[The Ham]

Most of the problems with the 220/221s break down to them being:
- too short
- too few in number (and therefore used too intensely)

If there were more and/or they were longer then there would be less complaints.

If there were more seats then fewer people would need to sit against a flank wall.

If the were more coaches the toilets would have fewer people needing to use each one meaning that they wouldn't fill up so quickly (likewise if they were less intensely used they could be emptied more often).

More seats would also mean that less luggage would need to be placed in the racks.

In short, those that have to use HSTs would find just as many faults if all the services were overly busy like the Voyagers are.

 

[route:oxford]

No buffet on an XC HST...

As few as 4 coaches on the up-coming Scotrail HSTs

 

[MonsooN]

As someone who is 6'3", I find Voyagers very uncomfortable if I have someone sitting next to me and I have to tuck my legs in, there just isn't enough room. I also find they feel narrow (even if they aren't) and confined. If they're not busy, they're fine.

Also, as many have already pointed out, there just isn't enough capacity on the busier parts of the network (in my experience, particularly between York and Birmingham) I was coming back to Newcastle from Bristol the other week and needed the toilet shortly after leaving Birmingham. I was sitting right I'm the middle of the carriage next to the window and the aisle was jammed with people. I'm sure I could have got up and pushed my way through the crowded aisle and through the crowded vestibule to queue up outside the toilet, but I just decided to tie a knot in it until the crowd thinned out a bit. If I'd been on the XC HST, I don't think this would have been an issue.

In summary, I don't mind Voyagers for shorter journeys or when they're quiet, but if it's a long journey and they're busy, I'd much rather be on the HST.