CrossCountry: routes eroded/lost since privatisation

[jamesontheroad]

My perception is, year on year, that Virgin and now CrossCountry have been gradually eating away at the extremities of their route network, so as to create a core set of routes with greater frequency and reliability. I'm thinking specifically of cities like Brighton that have lost XC coverage and presumably places like Glasgow that now have fewer direct trains than they once did.

Could anyone expand on this? Is there any way to compare today's XC timetable with that immediately before privatisation? Where has lost the most trains per day, and which routes (Scotland to the south west, perhaps) have been eaten away at each end the most?

Thanks

 

[anthony263]

I know crosscountry now opertae the Nottingham - cardiff route, which in my opinion should have gone to London Midland and this service should be extended to Swansea with the Milford Haven - Manchester trains running via the Swansea district line stopping at a new station in Morriston and thus offer faster journeys from west wales.

Another problem has been the withdrawl of the direct Swansea - Bristol -Derby- Newcastle service which used to operate 2-3 times daily. Now the only train is the 07:00 Cardiff - Birmingham - Manchester service & the 17:05 Manchester - Birmingham - Cardiff which is stupid because before december 2008 this service used to go to Newcastle a

 

[CCF23]

Since the voyagers have been introduced XC have stopped serving Blackpool, Brighton, Inverness, Liverpool and Portsmouth and London, i've read somewhere they used to serve Paddington. Places like Newquay have seen a massive decrease in XC services too.

 

[anthony263]

They did serve London Paddington, There atre photos of these train on the internet. I believe the crosscountry services working out of paddington would be those going to Manchester
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here is one such photo i have managed to find.

http://trains-are-hell.photos.me.uk/p36970280.html

 

[flymo]

Inverness

Did XC ever serve Inverness?

i've read somewhere they used to serve Paddington..

Back in the summer of 1998 (Ok after privatisation but that's the earliest timetable I can get my hands on right now) Virgin trains ran 4 trains Mon-Fri into Paddington. 3 from Manchester Piccadilly departing at 0917 1710 & 1910 and an 1810 departure from Liverpool Lime St.
Saturdays there was 1 train into Paddington from Piccadilly (1710 dep) and 1 from Liverpool (1805 dep).
Sundays there was a 1458 departure from Edinburgh into Paddington and a 1628 from Glasgow Central, both via the WCML.

Northbound departures Mon-Fri from Paddington were at 0600 & 0906 to Piccadilly and a 1418 to Glasgow Central.
Saturdays 0600 & 0852 to Piccadilly
Sundays 0851 Paddington to Edinburgh & 1206 to Glasgow Central (both WCML)

 

[charley_17/7]

XC also used to serve Manchester Airport, using Class 158s (to Glasgow/Edinburgh), also a odd-HST.

Ramsgate was also served, until about 2000, Summer Saturdays, IIRC.

 

[Bayum]

Aside from the fact, that XC have been getting rid of the extremities...

When you look at it in respect though - many of the places that they got rid of, have good links from places that XC serve anyways, fair enough - it's a change that many people will not be wanting, but it's weighing up what people want isn't it. More direct journeys, or a higher frequency?

 

[TGVDUDE]

wow, i diddn't know so many services were lost, i think Swansea was served looking (remembering an old timetable/map from some years ago) i wish they would do that wervice again, west of Cardiff seems so quiet nowadays

 

[WillPS]

What was the point in CrossCountry running a Manchester - London service as well as West Coast, who no doubt did the journey faster anyway!!

 

[flymo]

. I'm thinking specifically of cities like Brighton that have lost XC coverage [....] Is there any way to compare today's XC timetable with that immediately before privatisation?
Thanks

Regarding Brighton, take a look at http://www.1s76.com/INDEX.HTM which has some interesting info on the cross country services from that neck of the woods

 

[thefab444]

Since the voyagers have been introduced XC have stopped serving Blackpool, Brighton, Inverness, Liverpool and Portsmouth and London, i've read somewhere they used to serve Paddington.

I don't think XC trains have served Inverness since privatisation, Eastbourne likewise.

Here's a quick list of stations which have lost direct XC services since Virgin (and now Arriva) took over:

Blackpool North
Bolton
Bridgend*
Brighton
Bromley South
Carlisle
Carstairs
Chatham
Didcot Parkway (trains still call during engineering works though)
Dorchester South
East Croydon
Faversham
Fratton
Gatwick Airport
Haslemere
Havant
Haywards Heath
Kensington Olympia
Lancaster
Liverpool Lime Street
Lockerbie*
London Paddington
Manchester Airport
Margate
Neath*
Oxenholme
Penrith
Petersfield*
Poole
Portsmouth & Southsea
Portsmouth Harbour
Port Talbot Parkway*
Preston
Ramsgate
Redhill
Runcorn
Solihull
Swansea
Wareham
Warrington Bank Quay
Weymouth
Wigan North Western

* - I assume VXC trains served these stations, although I may be mistaken in the case of Petersfield, as a timetable from 2001 suggests XC services did not call there. In addition to the above, a number of stations lost direct XC trains prior to privatisation, such as Sandwell & Dudley, Slough, Dover Priory and Eastbourne. Also, a number of stations have been "decimated", such as Guildford, Cardiff Central, Crewe and Wilmslow.

The South West hasn't faired too badly out of XC, it's mostly the North West and South East that have seen huge cuts in the XC network, with only Bournemouth remaining, unless you count the one train a day to Guildford.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Thank you folks, that is particularly interesting information ... a lot of hot air has been expelled by armchair critics who (like me) lament the replacement of locomotive hauled (and HST) services with shorter and less comfortable Voyagers. But I've come to realise that that really isn't the biggest tragedy of the XC story. The core XC network that sees clockface service is just one part of a much bigger picture... it's a terrible failure on the part of the two XC franchise holders and the DfT to have allowed some many direct point to point connections to have disappeared.

It's true that (like adding in extra padding time at station stops) culling the fringes of the XC network has, on the whole, made it more reliable and permitted more predictable schedules. But anecdotal and (IIRC) factual evidence has shown that the majority of passengers prefer direct connections, even if they take longer than an alternative connecting route. Passengers aren't dumb: connections (especially at crowded and overworked stations like Birmingham New Street) are undesirable, especially when carrying luggage or when expecting delays.

Tomorrow is, for me, a case in point. I'm travelling from GLC to SHF, and have no hesitation in choosing the slower but direct 0900 XC over connections via the WCML or ECML. It's just a shame that the 0600 and the 0900 are the only weekday XC departures from Glasgow! To think that twenty years ago I could have taken a direct Intercity cross country service from Glasgow to dozens of now disconnected cities. :cry:

 

[TGVDUDE]

What was the point in CrossCountry running a Manchester - London service as well as West Coast, who no doubt did the journey faster anyway!!

picks up at diffirent stations

 

[Stonesourscotty]

The Bolton Wigan and Preston ones where replaced by TPE though so no real loss?

 

[ukrob]

What was the point in CrossCountry running a Manchester - London service as well as West Coast, who no doubt did the journey faster anyway!!

Same as Liverpool - Paddington. Different routes. Not aimed at the end to end market (which can be said of much of XC).

 

[thefab444]

Something tells me that the Paddington services were merely extended Reading trains, possibly due to insufficient platform capacity for running round etc. at the latter station - XC services could not use the bay platforms as they do now. Also, Old Oak Common was used as a stock base for VXC (indeed, until relatively recently there used to be an ECS Voyager reversing at Paddington to/from Reading) so it made sense to start some trains at Paddington anyway.

The only XC depot left in the SE is Eastleigh.

 

[Invincibles]

Losing the entire WCML section of cross country to virgin has obviously left a lot of places without a service (Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie etc) to anywhere south of Birmigham where I am sure they used to have a two hourly service down to the south west and some that went to Reading and places beyond there.

The flip side of that is that Manchester has gained a lot more services to the South West (initially taking that two hourly service and now under the high frequency timetable having an hourly Bristol train)

In both cases it was/is possible to change at Wolverhampton, I used to change from a Manchester - Birmingham onto a North West - South West and vice versa to avoid New Street. Now I benefit from a direct service but do not know what connections are like from the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Birmingham Virgin services.

The old Portsmouth Harbour - Manchester Piccadilly double 158 was great for coming back from a game at Fratton Park on a Saturday, but is it really that big a loss from the network? (it might have terminated at New Street but I think we came all the way back north on it)

When I first saw those Paddington trains they did confuse me as to the point, but I suppose if there are so many to Reading why not extend them by half an hour if there is the slightest market. As said it is unlikely to be anywhere north of Leamington Spa to London (is it right the Paddingtons end came with more Chiltern Trains operating from Leaminton and Banbury?)

 

[221_108]

Sorry if some have already been covered!

I've got a VTXC timetable from September 2002 which shows the following on the route map.

VT1: Glasgow/Blackpool to Penzance.
VT2: Aberdeen/Glasgow/Edinburgh/Newcastle to Poole via. Bolton and Manchester.
VT3: Manchester/Liverpool-London Paddington/Brighton and Portsmouth via. Solihull
VT4: Aberdeen-Swansea/Penzance and Paignton via. Leeds
VT10: Birmingham-Swindon

Before I got the timetable I didn't know of the VT10 route, did Voyagers ever venture down to Swindon or was it cut before the introduction of the Voyagers?

 

[flymo]

Actually going back a few more years to 1985 - yes I know many years before privatisation but what the hey - It seems like a dream looking at the summer Saturdays on table 51. Hull/Leeds to Tenby each way. Overnighters on a Friday to Devon & Cornwall from the likes of Manchester, Liverpool, Nottingham, Bradford, Leeds, Newcastle & Edinburgh. Ooohh yesterday leave me alone..

 

[voyagerdude220]

Before I got the timetable I didn't know of the VT10 route, did Voyagers ever venture down to Swindon or was it cut before the introduction of the Voyagers?

IIRC, the Birmingham to Swindon services weren't scheduled for operation by Voyager's, but were in fact usually a mixture of loco-hauled services, usually class 47, with the odd unit running them later on towards the end of the timetable?

 

[Aictos]

One line that most certainly would have came under Cross Country had it still existed was the Varsity line from Cambridge to Oxford which would have given people the chance to travel between the two avoiding London and Birmingham.

My main gripe about the Voyagers is they were rushed far too earlier into service and were far too short for the routes, a 7 or 9 car 222 would have been the better option especially considering the distances travelled!

 

[anthony263]

One line that most certainly would have came under Cross Country had it still existed was the Varsity line from Cambridge to Oxford which would have given people the chance to travel between the two avoiding London and Birmingham.

My main gripe about the Voyagers is they were rushed far too earlier into service and were far too short for the routes, a 7 or 9 car 222 would have been the better option especially considering the distances travelled!

I have to agree that the voyagers were and still are way to short for the routes that they operate. One 5 car voyager past me at Cheltenham spa around 17:05 with a train to penzance jammed packed, at least Arriva have had sense to puit some hsts back on to provide a bit more comfot although i hope that some more hsts are sent to crosscountry when they are replaced on the great western mainline.

Then some of the voyagers could be transfered to other routes such as the Norwich to. Liverpool service.

 

[anthonycutt]

Can I just point out that XC have reduced service stopping at Chesterfield?
That's enough of a cut for me to have concerns.

 

[90019]

and were far too short for the routes, a 7 or 9 car 222 would have been the better option

You can blame the DafT for that one. Virgin wanted them to be longer.

 

[350401]

You can blame the DafT for that one. Virgin wanted them to be longer.

Very true, there is a reason why Voyager coaches are labelled A,C,D,F - Virgins plans was for lengthening to 6 coaches as capacity demanded - hence the missing coach B in 220s and the missing coach E in both 220s and 221s. They were labelled as such to avoid having to relabel every coach and reprogram the on-train computers.

Same logic applies to the 390's - there will be a new standard coach E in all the lengthened units. Not sure what the other new coach will be though, as its 2xstandard class, meaning they'll have have standard as A,B,C,D,E,F,G and first as H,J,K,L?

 

[tbtc]

Can I just point out that XC have reduced service stopping at Chesterfield?
That's enough of a cut for me to have concerns.

Have they?

There used to be an hourly service from Birmingham to Newcastle (some via Leeds, some via Doncaster, some via both), all of which stopped at Chesterfield IIRC

Now there's a half hourly service (giving Leeds and Doncaster an hourly service each), of which only one stops at Chesterfield, so it's still got the same service as before

To answer other points on this thread:

1. Some places still have the same service on that line that they used to have but don't come under the Cross Country banner (e.g. the WCML service from Scotland to Birmingham is the most frequent it's ever been, same with Liverpool to Birmingham and Manchester to Scotland) - however these servics don't extend south of Birmingham like they used to

2. Most journeys on Cross Country are under 100 miles. Whilst it's a shame that there's not a link from everywhere on the south coast to everywhere in northern England, the franchise holders are best sticking with providing a settled regular service on key flows like Sheffied to Leeds or Manchester to Birmingham

3. Inverness has never been XC as far as I can remember

4. The Swindon service was run under Virgin - IIRC the plan was for it to run to Blackpool via Birmingham eventually (but never happened)

5. Services like the Paddington one were possible in BR days, when it made sense to utilise stock to combine a Paddington - Oxford HST with a Reading - Birmingham HST and just run one train. In similar ways, Scotrail used to use "spare" Intercity stock to cover gaps in it's network. However, with seperate franchsies these days, it'd be a lot harder to organise.

6. I think Arriva are doing the right thing (in terms of routes) - simplifying them into regular hourly services, rather than a lot of "one a day" services. However, we enthusiasts like those "obscure" services, so I can understand some criticism

7. There's nothing stopping other franchises from running partial replacements for some of the "lost" links (e.g. FGW could run Gatwick to Oxford, or ATW could run Swansea to Bristol)

8. Longer trains are needed, especially at weekends. In older days, Cross Country "borrowed" stock from the other lines for weekend services. This still happens with a (Leeds based) NXEC HST running from Manchester to Cornwall at the moment, but if the XC franchise was run by the same company as the East Coast Main Line or the Great(er) Western franchise then there'd be more scope for this.

 

[GNERman]

I don't think XC trains have served Inverness since privatisation, Eastbourne likewise.

Here's a quick list of stations which have lost direct XC services since Virgin (and now Arriva) took over:

Blackpool North
Bolton
Bridgend*
Brighton
Bromley South
Carlisle
Carstairs
Chatham
Didcot Parkway (trains still call during engineering works though)
Dorchester South
East Croydon
Faversham
Fratton
Gatwick Airport
Haslemere
Havant
Haywards Heath
Kensington Olympia
Lancaster
Liverpool Lime Street
Lockerbie*
London Paddington
Manchester Airport
Margate
Neath*
Oxenholme
Penrith
Petersfield*
Poole
Portsmouth & Southsea
Portsmouth Harbour
Port Talbot Parkway*
Preston
Ramsgate
Redhill
Runcorn
Solihull
Swansea
Wareham
Warrington Bank Quay
Weymouth
Wigan North Western

* - I assume VXC trains served these stations, although I may be mistaken in the case of Petersfield, as a timetable from 2001 suggests XC services did not call there. In addition to the above, a number of stations lost direct XC trains prior to privatisation, such as Sandwell & Dudley, Slough, Dover Priory and Eastbourne. Also, a number of stations have been "decimated", such as Guildford, Cardiff Central, Crewe and Wilmslow.

The South West hasn't faired too badly out of XC, it's mostly the North West and South East that have seen huge cuts in the XC network, with only Bournemouth remaining, unless you count the one train a day to Guildford.

also bournemouth

the 158 man airport was a joke as was that fnw service from the airport to euston using 322's!?

 

[Mojo]

also bournemouth

Nope, that was a list of stations that are no longer served by XC; Bournemouth still gets an hourly service to/from Manchester via Coventry.

 

[43106]

To add my contribution...
1) XC NEVER served Inverness, but (in an odd sort of way) their predecessor did. Before the Highland Chieftain service ran in its present form, it used to be called The Clansman and run between Euston and Inverness via Birmingham, so you could argue that the Birmingham - Inverness portion was an XC service.
2) In the 1990's there was an XC service of sorts that went to Dover via Kensington Olympia, Clapham Junction, Bromley South and Faversham. If My memory serves me well, it went to Eastbourne on Saturdays.
3) At about the same time (if not earlier), there was a service that went down the WCML, then went along the North London Line and finished up at Parkeston Quay. I THINK it started from Edinburgh and/or Glasgow.

 

[Aictos]

The 222s were a better design then the 220s as the interiors were less cramped due to having more components fitted underneath the train.

Imagine if Virgin was successful with getting longer trains being 222s there would have been less negative feedback plus they would have been worthy successors to the XC fleet however they should never had got rid of the HSTs in the first place.