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Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

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fat_boy_pete

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I took a trip to London on Friday to visit all of the central core (Abbey Wood to Paddington) stations, exiting and re-entering at each. As a non resident of London, but with a Senior Railcard, I used a paper off peak zone 1-6 travelcard for journey to/from/within London. This was the most cost effective thing to do, given my purpose.

It was interesting to see which gate lines accepted it and which didn't. They worked everywhere, except Abbey Wood, Custom House and Whitechapel, where I had to ask a staff member to let me through the gate. Is this just faulty configuration of the gates or would there be an operational reason?
 
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thomalex

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Something I’ve just found is the section between TCR and Bond Street is floating track with the track sitting on rubber bearings and springs
 

swt_passenger

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Something I’ve just found is the section between TCR and Bond Street is floating track with the track sitting on rubber bearings and springs
Reduce noise and vibration effect on Soho recording studios and hotels apparently. Also used under the Barbican area.
 

davews

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I took a trip to London on Friday to visit all of the central core (Abbey Wood to Paddington) stations, exiting and re-entering at each. As a non resident of London, but with a Senior Railcard, I used a paper off peak zone 1-6 travelcard for journey to/from/within London. This was the most cost effective thing to do, given my purpose.

It was interesting to see which gate lines accepted it and which didn't. They worked everywhere, except Abbey Wood, Custom House and Whitechapel, where I had to ask a staff member to let me through the gate. Is this just faulty configuration of the gates or would there be an operational reason?
I had no issues with a paper travel card at Abbey Wood (or anywhere else) on Thursday, entering by the upper entrance (I didn't exit there on my trips though).
Little report of my trip, and a bit of countryside, at http://davesergeant.com/walks2022/glw2.htm
 

swt_passenger

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It was interesting to see which gate lines accepted it and which didn't. They worked everywhere, except Abbey Wood, Custom House and Whitechapel, where I had to ask a staff member to let me through the gate. Is this just faulty configuration of the gates or would there be an operational reason?
Were any of those occasions because you were exiting and re-entering within quite a short period?
 

Mikey C

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Reduce noise and vibration effect on Soho recording studios and hotels apparently. Also used under the Barbican area.
I wonder how long the rubber bearings and springs will last before it needs replacing? If that happens at all...
 

90sWereBetter

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Lost somewhere within Bank-Monument tube station,
I managed to catch the third train from Abbey Wood to Paddington on launch day, such an impressive journey. Out of Canary Wharf the 345s genuinely sound like tube stock. The sheer size of Liverpool Street station has to be seen to be believed, incredible stuff.

One thing that caught me unawares was later in the day, I needed to change from the DLR to Crossrail at Custom House, only to discover that I had to actually touch out and then touch in again at the barriers. Embarrassing walk back to the DLR readers and back resulted. Guessing that setup is to do with the DLR not having ticket barriers, as I was able to change to the Central Line at Liverpool Street without the need to touch out/in again.

Although there's probably dedicated threads for this, on Wednesday 25th I still managed to catch a Class 315 on the eastern section, and the pair of units had new Elizabeth Line stickers inside. This surprised me, as I had thought the opening of the core would be the death knell for the last stragglers, and I had already ensured I did a last journey a few weeks earlier.
 
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AlbertBeale

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Reduce noise and vibration effect on Soho recording studios and hotels apparently. Also used under the Barbican area.

Is the fact that the tunnels are nearer the surface in that stretch (than in most of the central area) anything to do with it?
 

swt_passenger

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Is the fact that the tunnels are nearer the surface in that stretch (than in most of the central area) anything to do with it?
I’d expect so, I found a Crossrail web page detailing what type of track was used where, but it gave no real details.

I believe there’s already a spring loaded section of track on the SSR under the Barbican for similar reasons of noise/vibration reduction. Haven’t seen any info about how long that’s been in place though.
 

fat_boy_pete

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Were any of those occasions because you were exiting and re-entering within quite a short period?
No, didn't work on exit at arrival. Ironically, when I did exit and re-entered at Paddington later on, it was fine! There seemed no rhyme or reason, why those 3 locations did not work. So I can only assume misconfiguration.
 

station_road

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No, didn't work on exit at arrival. Ironically, when I did exit and re-entered at Paddington later on, it was fine! There seemed no rhyme or reason, why those 3 locations did not work. So I can only assume misconfiguration.
You mentioned holding a railcard - those stations could have the barriers set to reject discounted tickets
 

ctom_s

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I've just done the moorgate northern line connection, is far but definitely better than going up and round the houses. It definitely IS signposted from the southbound Northern line platforms so must have just missed it earlier this week.

The connection from xrail to central via northern at TCR seems pretty good but it's better going central to Lizzie than Lizzie to central due to the way the one way system works (though of course you can be annoying and ignore it)

Lift at Barbican is cool but they couldn't hide it more if they tried haha
 

Horizon22

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No, didn't work on exit at arrival. Ironically, when I did exit and re-entered at Paddington later on, it was fine! There seemed no rhyme or reason, why those 3 locations did not work. So I can only assume misconfiguration.

I think Abbey Wood, Farringdon and Custom House have issues due to the interchanges with other NR modes (and the DLR). Farringdon in particular needs platform validators as its causing some maximum fare issues. And others may be slightly misconfigured for whatever reason.
 

fat_boy_pete

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You mentioned holding a railcard - those stations could have the barriers set to reject discounted tickets
Yes that might be it. But why just those 3? I possibly can get Abbey Wood and Whitechapel as potentially interchange points from National Rail journeys from further afield. But why Custom House? And yet it worked at Farringdon, which would have the widest possible journey origins! I just can't get the logic.
 

Silver Cobra

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You mentioned holding a railcard - those stations could have the barriers set to reject discounted tickets
While that is possible, I would surmise that Custom House is set to only reject certain railcards based on my experience today. I travelled from Farringdon to Custom House to attend the MCM Comic Con at the ExCeL, and the Annual Gold-discounted travelcard I used was accepted by the barriers both on exiting the station in the morning and entering in the afternoon.

Speaking of MCM Comic Con, it's interesting to see that the Elizabeth Line is planned to be closed on Saturday 29th October, which is right in the middle of the October Comic Con event. The EL proved very helpful in managing the flow of attendees to the event today, relieving pressure off of the DLR. So it'll be rather rubbish to go back to having only the DLR available for the October event.
 
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JaJaWa

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Quoting the TfL statement:
A TfL spokesperson said: "We have identified a potential issue where a small number of customers changing onto the Elizabeth line from Thameslink services originating outside the pay as you go area may have been charged a maximum pay as you go fare as they have not touched in at Farringdon."

"We always want customers to pay the correct fare, and while we are urgently working on finding a more permanent solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."

"Additional signage and TfL Ambassadors are in place at Farringdon to help advise affected customers and anyone who was not able to touch in can amend their journey on the TfL website or contact our customer services team to ensure they have only paid the correct fare."

and the Diamond Geezer post:

Saturday, May 28, 2022​

Always touch in at the start of a journey and touch out at the end, say TfL, to ensure you pay the correct fare.

So it's unfortunate that three new Crossrail stations have been configured so that you can't always do that, causing inconvenience, overcharging and extended journey times.

The worst offender is Custom House, the station beside the ExCel exhibition centre and a key interchange with the DLR. Entering from the outside world is fine because everyone has to walk through a gateline and everything works. But arriving from the DLR is a total mess, and all because nobody remembered to install any yellow validators.

The DLR/Crossrail interface should be really smooth because they've built a special escalator at one end of the DLR platform to whisk you up to a special gateline into the new station. But if you go through that gateline you may be charged a maximum fare for an incomplete journey because you were supposed to touch out first. And you can't touch out because there isn't a validator anywhere en route, only alongside previous exits from the station, so they've had to put up a notice.

custhse.jpg

It's not even a very practical notice because it says "Validators are located at the DLR entrance/exit" but it doesn't tell you where that is. Since its rebuild Custom House has at least four places you could describe as the entrance/exit, and if this is your first visit you won't have a clue where they are because you came up the new escalator instead.

So bad is the problem that they've had to position staff behind the gateline to tell you not to walk through it. "Have you come up from the DLR?" I was asked, and on responding positively was politely asked to go away. I told them I had a Z1-3 Travelcard but this didn't appease them and they continued to warn me I faced a maximum fare if I went any further. I resisted saying "that's bollox" and humoured them by going on a great big detour round to the validator and back in at the front of the station. As I passed them on the other side of the gateline two minutes later I offered a weak smile, but really I was thinking "which utter idiot messed this up?"

The noticeboard would have been much more useful had it been downstairs on the platform, or if staff had thought to mention the problem before anyone reached the escalator. Passengers could then have been sent up the other way past the original validators and all would have been well. Instead we have two distinct staffing empires - the Elizabeth lot upstairs and the DLR lot downstairs - and no coordinated communication between the two. If only someone had foreseen this issue during the several years before Crossrail eventually opened.

And it's not just Custom House. They've also forgotten to introduce new validators at Farringdon.

farringdo.jpg

The problem this time is interchanging between Crossrail and Thameslink. If you arrive up the purple escalator and want to touch out before you continue your journey on Thameslink you can't because no yellow pads have been provided. Destinations within London are fine, as are journeys as far as Luton or Gatwick Airports, but if you're going further on a paper ticket you're stuffed. Your train to Bedford or Cambridge might be sitting right there in the platform but you can't catch it, you have to head upstairs and tap out at the gateline with your Oyster/contactless card and then turn round, come back through and head back down.

Farringdon's long been an interchange between Thameslink trains and the tube, but this hasn't been an issue because the boundary between the two sets of platforms is smothered with validators. If you need them you can use them and if you don't you can sweep right past. But without new validators at the purple entrance those heading in from Brighton, Sevenoaks and Rochester now have to go up to the ticket hall and beep twice before continuing their journey, rather than simply walking a few steps towards the escalators. Many have already been charged maximum fares and been forced to waste time ringing up for a refund.

BBC London's Tom Edwards has received a response from TfL regarding the situation at Farringdon saying "we have identified a potential issue" and "we are urgently working on finding a permanent solution", but in the meantime hassle reigns.

And it's not just Custom House and Farringdon. They've also forgotten to introduce new validators at Abbey Wood.

abwood.jpg

This time the issue is passengers travelling beyond Dartford (which is the limit of pay as you go validity). As of this week they have the option of interchanging to a much faster service at Abbey Wood, indeed two additional footbridges have been built to streamline the connection. But you can't use them if you need to touch in because they're validatorless, instead you have to head up to the gateline in the ticket hall and touch in there, and all because nobody considered the wider implications.

Which is odd because the team that supervise ticketing and revenue issues are normally on the ball to an impressively anal degree. You can confirm this if you read their regular Ticketing and Revenue Update, a comprehensive internal newsletter which is usually released to the wider world via an FoI request. Published in March, TRU 137 announced that a pink card reader would be needed at Ealing Broadway to cope in the autumn when Crossrail is finally extended through Paddington rather than terminating there. At present everyone boarding a westbound train at Paddington has to pass through a ticket barrier but in future it'll be possible to enter the system via the new passageway from the Bakerloo line leaving no electronic trace.

elbroad.gif

It takes an impressive level of fare-nerdery to deduce that a pink reader at Ealing Broadway will solve this issue, but that's why TfL employ experts for this kind of thing. I've even been out and checked and Ealing Broadway does indeed now have pink readers at the entrance to the District line platforms, seemingly repurposed from previous yellow pads and as yet switched off. There's forward thinking for you.

ealbroad.jpg

But Custom House, Farringdon and Abbey Wood they missed, and passengers are currently paying the price. Best hope they hurry up and solve it soon.

posted 07:00 : comments

Sources:
https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/1530225263753191429
https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2022/05/untouchoutable.html
 
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tomuk

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I don't think it even needs pink validators (perhaps at Abbey Wood). Custom House needs to appear as an integrated gateline I think.
Yes surely their should only be a gateline at the exits/ entrances to the station not between DLR and Elizabeth Line. If arriving by 'train' you will have already touched in somewhere.
 

londontransit

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The only one line continuing East allows the Elizabeth line to have a level entrance from Felixstowe Road - which I imagine is pretty useful to people living North of the station.

Of course if EL does ever get extended Eastwards, that entrance will end up getting lost and there'll need to be some rebuilding work there...

On another note, on Tuesday, a couple of hours after the line had first opened, I went to take a look at it (without travelling on it). I was quite amused to see that the two platforms at Abbey Wood were already not apparently quite enough - I watched an incoming train queueing outside the station because both platforms were occupied!
LOL that wasn't much in terms of not being enough - yesterday we queued all the way from Silvertown to Abbey Wood just waiting for a platform to be available at the terminus. We had six trains ahead of us (possibly seven even) waiting to use the two platformed terminus. Clearly Abbey Wood is a massive thorn in the operation of the Elizabeth line when its timetable fall to pieces.

One could stand at the end of the platforms at Abbey Wood and see at least four trains in the section to Plumstead (one just leaving, three waiting to get in.)
 

Horizon22

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LOL that wasn't much in terms of not being enough - yesterday we queued all the way from Silvertown to Abbey Wood just waiting for a platform to be available at the terminus. We had six trains ahead of us (possibly seven even) waiting to use the two platformed terminus. Clearly Abbey Wood is a massive thorn in the operation of the Elizabeth line when its timetable fall to pieces.

One could stand at the end of the platforms at Abbey Wood and see at least four trains in the section to Plumstead (one just leaving, three waiting to get in.)

Probably when / in aftermath of Abbey Wood being evacuated - you are right the resilience at the station is limited other than a small siding onwards from Platform 3 to withdraw a unit. In such an event its likely more trains would have to terminate and restart down the line.
 

londontransit

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Probably when / in aftermath of Abbey Wood being evacuated - you are right the resilience at the station is limited other than a small siding onwards from Platform 3 to withdraw a unit. In such an event its likely more trains would have to terminate and restart down the line.
Exactly. They weren't doing this not even at at Custom House.
 

Taunton

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Diamond Geezer discusses these matters and the lack of pink validators today - https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com
This is indeed a stupid nonsense. I can confirm that the arrangements written about Custom House, above and on Diamond Geezer, lead to being inappropriately hit for a maximum fare, because I checked three days later and I was :( .

At Custom House the obvious route from DLR to Elizabeth takes you up twin escalators, both up only, the only ones on the DLR side, and through a gateline into the Elizabeth internal mezzanine, following signs to Elizabeth. But the gateline, while recording an entrance to Elizabeth, does not record an exit from DLR. Quite why passengers should be hit with a penalty maximum fare is of course not apparent. Hopefully someone at the London Assembly will be asking Andy Byford how much thery have pocketed due to this.

By Friday, three days in, a notice board had appeared to one side (it was not there on day 1), written in best corporate lawyer-speak, which appears (if you speak CorpLawyerSpeak) to caution about this, and a member of staff was placed specifically to offer cautions. Quite why the Oyster logic cannot be set so as with a DLR touch-in from 10 minutes beforehand it handles the situation is not apparent. It also tells you to go to the "DLR exit". Guess what, there isn't a specific DLR exit from the station.

Probably when / in aftermath of Abbey Wood being evacuated - you are right the resilience at the station is limited other than a small siding onwards from Platform 3 to withdraw a unit. In such an event its likely more trains would have to terminate and restart down the line.
I was further back in this event, trains were not being even dispatched from Paddington, and eventually at Custom House the efforts to reverse the train being turned short were fully Headless Chicken mode, both train operations and staff conflicting announcements, as I discussed further above yesterday.
 
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johncrossley

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If you are changing from Crossrail to Thameslink at Farringdon, using Oyster/contactless on Crossrail and KeyGo or paper ticket on National Rail, can't you just tap out at the validator on the Thameslink platform instead of going up to the main ticket gate, just like you do when you change from the tube to Thameslink at Farringdon?
 

JaJaWa

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If you are changing from Crossrail to Thameslink at Farringdon, using Oyster/contactless on Crossrail and KeyGo or paper ticket on National Rail, can't you just tap out at the validator on the Thameslink platform instead of going up to the main ticket gate, just like you do when you change from the tube to Thameslink at Farringdon?
Those are between Thameslink and the Tube (sub-surface lines) not between Thameslink and the Elizabeth line
 

345 050

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Probably when / in aftermath of Abbey Wood being evacuated - you are right the resilience at the station is limited other than a small siding onwards from Platform 3 to withdraw a unit. In such an event its likely more trains would have to terminate and restart down the line.
Did they use the emergency siding behind Abbey Wood?
 

johncrossley

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Those are between Thameslink and the Tube (sub-surface lines) not between Thameslink and the Elizabeth line

They are on the Thameslink platforms, so all you have to do is walk along the platform. That's quicker than going upstairs, out of the barriers, back through the barriers and onto the platform.
 
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