Crossrail Rolling Stock Procurement

[Class377/5]

Read the Crossrail spec. They are asking for 200m fixed formation trains - and the interior spec will be different to either of your suggested solutions. In any case, it has been reported that for Crossrail Bombardier will not offer an Electrostar variant, it will be an Adventra, which is the E* replacement.

Whatever you want for Thameslink is academic though.
Siemens will be building the trains unless they suddenly go bust, as they have been declared the preferred bidder...

It is a case of Siemens ARE building the trains. Behind the scenes it's not frozen but a lot of work is ongoing. Just wish they'd sign off the contracts and give concrete days of introduction.

 

[AlanFry1]

377/5 aren't suitable for Thameslink long term due to their 3+2 seating which isn't popluar. Neither are the 379 due to loss of capacity through the cabs when joined up in peak.

Most 377's have 2+2 seating, which is also the case for the 379
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Read the Crossrail spec. They are asking for 200m fixed formation trains - and the interior spec will be different to either of your suggested solutions. In any case, it has been reported that for Crossrail Bombardier will not offer an Electrostar variant, it will be an Adventra, which is the E* replacement.

Whatever you want for Thameslink is academic though.
Siemens will be building the trains unless they suddenly go bust, as they have been declared the preferred bidder...

So the trains have to be 10 car, not 2 x 5 car?

 

[Class377/5]

Most 377's have 2+2 seating, which is also the case for the 379

So the trains have to be 10 car, not 2 x 5 car?

The poster stated 377/5 hence my comment being directed at them and only them. I think I know what the seating is (especially for the 377/5's).

As for why 10 car, because they don't want to waste space with two cabs. On the Shenfield and Abbey Wood Line they need more than 5 car all the time hence the fixed formation 10 car.

 

[AlanFry1]

The poster stated 377/5 hence my comment being directed at them and only them. I think I know what the seating is (especially for the 377/5's).

As for why 10 car, because they don't want to waste space with two cabs. On the Shenfield and Abbey Wood Line they need more than 5 car all the time hence the fixed formation 10 car.

I am not suggesting off the peg version of the Class 377/5, but a 10 car version of the 377/5 with 2+2 seating (and 2+1 seating in first class)

 

[Eagle]

I am not suggesting off the peg version of the Class 377/5, but a 10 car version of the 377/5 with 2+2 seating (and 2+1 seating in first class)

Crossrail trains will not have first class.

 

[AlanFry1]

Crossrail trains will not have first class.

In that case 10-car Class 377/5 trains with 2+2 seating and standard class only seating will do the trick for Crossrail

 

[ainsworth74]

In that case 10-car Class 377/5 trains with 2+2 seating and standard class only seating will do the trick for Crossrail

Apart from Bombardier aren't offering 377s they're offering Aventra so that plan isn't going to be getting much further.

 

[Class377/5]

I am not suggesting off the peg version of the Class 377/5, but a 10 car version of the 377/5 with 2+2 seating (and 2+1 seating in first class)

To be pedantic, that not what you put.

And to be honest, glad we're getting Desiro's.

Tho putting the thread back on track, will be interesting to see what sort of bid Bombardier put in (in the sense what little we'll every get to see).

 

[AlanFry1]

To be pedantic, that not what you put.

And to be honest, glad we're getting Desiro's.

Tho putting the thread back on track, will be interesting to see what sort of bid Bombardier put in (in the sense what little we'll every get to see).

Whoever gets this contract, lets hope the trains are build in the UK, even if it means contracting the work to Derby

 

[ainsworth74]

Whoever gets this contract, lets hope the trains are build in the UK, even if it means contracting the work to Derby

Unless it's contracted to Bombardier or perhaps Hitachi it won't be built in the UK. And even if it goes to Bombardier there are no guarantees they'll choose to build it at Derby.

 

[HSTEd]

Unless it's contracted to Bombardier or perhaps Hitachi it won't be built in the UK. And even if it goes to Bombardier there are no guarantees they'll choose to build it at Derby.

Well you could contract it to Bombardier on the understanding that they be built at Derby, such contracts have been done for various things before.
If they don't build it there the contract would be void.

 

[AlanFry1]

Well you could contract it to Bombardier on the understanding that they be built at Derby, such contracts have been done for various things before.
If they don't build it there the contract would be void.

For example, the building of the Class 91/Mark 4 was done by BREL on behalf of GEC Alsthom

 

[jon0844]

Back to the original thread, and the tender process, it seems a bit pointless to me, as the government is almost 100% certain to give it to Bombardier after all the fuss they kicked up over Thameslink. Can you imagine the headlines if they give this one to Siemens too?

I hope they award the contract to the best company. If the trains are going to be similar to the TL ones, it may make Siemens more competitive as the order will, technically, be a run-on order. That could help them win. Likewise, if the trains would be more like the 378/379s then maybe Bombardier would have a better case, but it seems that they're not going to suggest them.

I'd hope politics doesn't see Bombardier simply getting the deal because of public pressure; a public that seems convinced that Bombardier is a British company and Siemens is an evil Germany one (no doubt proving Godwins Law by making links with Germany and the Nazis!).

It has already been made quite obvious that Bombardier wants out of the UK and planned loads of job cuts regardless of the outcome of the last bid. If their land is 'prime building land' worth a small fortune, I am sure they'll leave at some point - even if they secure loads of orders. They could still fulfil the orders from abroad, and then we'd see how the media treats them in the future.

 

[AlanFry1]

I hope they award the contract to the best company. If the trains are going to be similar to the TL ones, it may make Siemens more competitive as the order will, technically, be a run-on order. That could help them win. Likewise, if the trains would be more like the 378/379s then maybe Bombardier would have a better case.

I'd hope politics doesn't see Bombardier simply getting the deal because of public pressure; a public that seems convinced that Bombardier is a British company and Siemens is an evil Germany one (no doubt proving Godwins Law by making links with Germany and the Nazis!).

It has already been made quite clear that Bombardier wants out of the UK and planned loads of job cuts regardless. If their land is prime building land, I am sure they'll leave at some point - even if they secure loads of orders. They could still fulfil the orders from abroad, and then we'd see how the media treats them in the future.

But if the government makes clear (without breaking EU rules) that the trains must be built in the UK, then Bombardier cannot shut it down otherwise it have to wave goodbye to any UK orders

 

[HSTEd]

And if they move to shutdown the plant, the governmetn could serve a CPO on it and then set up a new BREL.... well I can dream.

 

[AlanFry1]

And if they move to shutdown the plant, the governmetn could serve a CPO on it and then set up a new BREL.... well I can dream.

If they shut the plant down, then nether Bombardier or Siemens will get the contract, but Hitachi will

 

[Nym]

And if they move to shutdown the plant, the governmetn could serve a CPO on it and then set up a new BREL.... well I can dream.

Would be nice, then they could build that next gen LHCS stock there and scrap the plans for the Hitachi SET and use LHCS for the IEP Requirement.

 

[jon0844]

But if the government makes clear (without breaking EU rules) that the trains must be built in the UK, then Bombardier cannot shut it down otherwise it have to wave goodbye to any UK orders

It would be very interesting to see what Bombardier would do then, as I am sure they'd rather win contracts and build abroad than be forced to keep Derby going. If I (and others) are wrong, perhaps they should come out and make it perfectly clear that they don't intend to close down and sell the land for housing, then we could know how serious and committed they are. I didn't get that impression when it was made public that they'd be sacking loads of people regardless of whether they secured the TL contract (and yet the media seemed to have totally missed that little bit of detail as it didn't suit their anti-German stance, along with the fact that Bombardier's European HQ is in.. Germany!).

If I was Bombardier, given the knowledge that many trains are due massive refurbishments, I'd be making it clear that Derby was safe - and investing more in the site to enable the company to secure some lucrative and profitable work. It isn't just about building new rolling stock, given how much stock we have that is perfectly serviceable and will be for a number of years to come.

 

[ainsworth74]

I didn't get that impression when it was made public that they'd be sacking loads of people regardless of whether they secured the TL contract (and yet the media seemed to have totally missed that little bit of detail as it didn't suit their anti-German stance, along with the fact that Bombardier's European HQ is in.. Germany!).

I think that was the most annoying part of that whole fiasco. The loss of the TL contract didn't cost 1,400 jobs it cost 200 as Bombardier would have axed 1,200 staff no matter what had happened.

 

[Class377/5]

If I was Bombardier, given the knowledge that many trains are due massive refurbishments, I'd be making it clear that Derby was safe - and investing more in the site to enable the company to secure some lucrative and profitable work. It isn't just about building new rolling stock, given how much stock we have that is perfectly serviceable and will be for a number of years to come.

Given the current climate, refurbishing trains looks very likely. Bombardier, if truely behind Derby, could make sure it's well placed to do the work.

I think that was the most annoying part of that whole fiasco. The loss of the TL contract didn't cost 1,400 jobs it cost 200 as Bombardier would have axed 1,200 staff no matter what had happened.

couldn't have said it better.

 

[Rational Plan]

I thought Justine Greening had caused a fit of vapours by talking of a national policy.

My department has been working with colleagues across Whitehall, and suppliers and delivery bodies to implement these recommendations. Across the transport sector we want to improve dialogue with suppliers and increase the long-term visibility of forthcoming contracts in order to strengthen the capability of the UK supply chain....

The Invitation to Negotiate includes requirements for ‘responsible procurement’. This means that bidders are required to set out how they will engage with the wider supply chain and provide opportunities for training, apprenticeships, and small and medium size businesses within their procurement strategy. Bidders are also required to establish an appropriate local presence to manage the delivery of the contract.

http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2012-03-01T14:22:00Z&max-results=30

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought Justine Greening had caused a fit of vapours by talking of a national policy.

First, the Invitation to Negotiate includes requirements for ‘responsible procurement’. This means that bidders are required to set out how they will engage with the wider supply chain and provide opportunities for training, apprenticeships, and small and medium size businesses within their procurement strategy. Bidders are also required to establish an appropriate local presence to manage the delivery of the contract

Which then goes on to say:

"The Mayor and I are also keen to understand and communicate the benefit of this contract to the UK economy; bidders are being asked, in the Invitation to Negotiate, to specify from where each element of the contract will be sourced. This is not an assessment criterion in the decision process however the successful bidder will be required to report against their proposed estimates..."

The devil is in the detail...