Croydon to Southampton via Leatherhead

[Wookiee]

I hold a Southampton to Croydon Stations via Barnham season and was wondering whether or not it is valid for a journey break at Leatherhead, going from West Croydon via Sutton.

My guess is that it is valid, using Ford as a routeing point, on map SC. Does that sound about right, or have I oversimplified?

 

[John @ home]

My guess is that it is valid, using Ford as a routeing point, on map SC. Does that sound about right ... ?

No, I fear not.

Mapped routes from Southampton Group to Croydon Group are:

• LONDON
• CW+LB
• LP
• PD+LB
• SW+LB, and
• SW+SC

Although map SC does indeed allow travel from Ford Group to Croydon Group via Horsham, Dorking and Leatherhead, it does not make a Permitted Route in combination with map SW at Ford Group, leaving a gap between Portsmouth Group and Ford Group.

I'm not able to find a mapped route via Horsham, Dorking and Leatherhead using any of the other maps or combinations, and the booking engines appear to confirm that this is not a Permitted Route by returning "no fares available" to requests for a journey Southampton to West Croydon via Dorking.

 

[Wookiee]

So despite the fact that my ticket opens the gates at West Croydon, there aren't actually any services from that station that I can legitimately board? Bizarre!

I take it that the 'via Barnham' element of the ticket doesn't override the need to follow a valid mapped route for the entirety of the journey?

 

[Romilly]

On the first point, I think that West Croydon - somewhere like Selhurst or Norwood Junction - East Croydon - Barnham - Southampton would be permissible on the ticket, so validity at West Croydon does serve some purpose.

On the second point, the "via Barnham" requirement of the particular fare means that you can only use permitted routes that go via Barnham. Were it to be the case that there were no permitted routes going via Barnham, I seem to recall that you would then look for a combination of: Croydon-Barnham permitted routes; and Barnham-Southampton permitted routes.

 

[John @ home]

despite the fact that my ticket opens the gates at West Croydon, there aren't actually any services from that station that I can legitimately board?

The journey planners suggest changing at Norwood Junction and East Croydon.

I take it that the 'via Barnham' element of the ticket doesn't override the need to follow a valid mapped route for the entirety of the journey?

In this instance, where Barnham lies on a Permitted Croydon Stations - Southampton Ctl route, the journey must be via Barnham and must follow a Permitted Route for the whole of the journey. That Permitted Route may be a mapped route or the route taken by a through train between Croydon and Southampton via Barnham. The shortest Croydon to Southampton route is not relevant here, because that does not go via Barnham.

 

[John @ home]

Were it to be the case that there were no permitted routes going via Barnham, I seem to recall that you would then look for a combination of: Croydon-Barnham permitted routes; and Barnham-Southampton permitted routes.

This is correct.

 

[soil]

the full list of maps from Southampton to Croydon is:

CW+LB

Southampton - Barnham - Brighton or Lewes - Wivelsfield - Croydon

CW+LB+TN

Southampton - Barnham - Lewes - Hastings - Tonbridge - Redhill - Croydon

CW+LF+LB

n/a

CW+LF+TN

Southampton - Barnham -Horsham - Gatwick - Croydon

CW+PD+LB
CW+PD+TN

Southampton - Portsmouth - Guildford - Croydon (basically all routes via London and not via London, including via Leatherhead)

LP

as CW+LF+TN


PD+LB

as CW+PD+LB

SW+LB
SW+TN

Southampton - Basingstoke - Woking (many routes both not via London and via London) - Croydon

SW+SC

allows you to loop back from Woking to Croydon as far as Epsom

XR+RG+LB
XR+RG+TN

Southampton - Reading - Paddington - routes from London to Croydon

XR+WX+LB
XR+WX+TN

Southampton - Reading - Clapham Junction - (London) - Croydon

and
Southampton - Reading - Guildford - Clapham Junction - (London) - Croydon

So you can go via Leatherhead, but on a 'not via London' or 'any permitted' ticket, not a 'via Barnham' ticket.

Incidentally, if you get an out-of-zone-6 'via Barnham' season, the weekly cost is only £65 vs £94 to say Coulsdon South or Croydon. However I'm not sure how easy it is to tie it together.

 

[Wookiee]

Thanks all.

 

[soil]

Southampton - Ewell East via Barnham seems to do much the same job.

 

[Kite159]

CW+LB+TN

Southampton - Barnham - Lewes - Hastings - Tonbridge - Redhill - Croydon

That route I must say is quite a random & circular way to go from Southampton to Croydon

 

[30907]

It seems very strange that West Croydon-Leatherhead-Barnham-Southampton is NOT a permitted route, while the longer route via Norwood Jn is.

A normal punter would surely assume it to be valid?

And as for via Hastings...?

 

[kieron]

In the interests of accuracy, I should point out that the journey planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk feels that a route via Leatherhead like this* is valid with a "via Barnham" ticket. Under the current rules, that means that it is.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have in order for these results to display correctly.

 

[infobleep]

In the interests of accuracy, I should point out that the journey planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk feels that a route via Leatherhead like this* is valid with a "via Barnham" ticket. Under the current rules, that means that it is.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have in order for these results to display correctly.

I've had issues in the past where valid tickets have been refused at stations with the comment, you need to speak with our pricing manager; National Rail Enquiries must be wrong.

If the Leatherhead route is entirely reasonable, regardless of whether it's valid or not, then speaking with the pricing manager might be fine. It just something to bear in mind in my opinion.

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[Wookiee]

Confused.com

:cry:

 

[kieron]

I've had issues in the past where valid tickets have been refused at stations with the comment, you need to speak with our pricing manager; National Rail Enquiries must be wrong.

I think it makes more sense to know what the rules are rather than what some poorly trained member of staff might imagine them to be.

The Routeing Guide instructions say:

Please note that the fare routes data and maps in the National Routeing Guide are generated from the same data used in the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk Therefore, in the case of uncertainty, a route may be checked inputting the relevant origin, destination, interchange and intended via points at that site.​

Having checked your route as instructed, it is not your concern whether or not someone or other intended it to be valid with your ticket.

Whether to use a particular ticket is up to the individual. I just wanted to mention that this isn't one of the tickets the rules forbid.

 

[Busaholic]

That route I must say is quite a random & circular way to go from Southampton to Croydon

Why not make a day out of it and go via Ashford International too?

 

[infobleep]

I think it makes more sense to know what the rules are rather than what some poorly trained member of staff might imagine them to be.

The Routeing Guide instructions say:

Please note that the fare routes data and maps in the National Routeing Guide are generated from the same data used in the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk Therefore, in the case of uncertainty, a route may be checked inputting the relevant origin, destination, interchange and intended via points at that site.​

Having checked your route as instructed, it is not your concern whether or not someone or other intended it to be valid with your ticket.

Whether to use a particular ticket is up to the individual. I just wanted to mention that this isn't one of the tickets the rules forbid.

I only mentioned it so people might be aware. I agree what staff say doesn't alter the fact it's valid but sometimes you can't get passed staff saying what they say.

The recourse in such cases is the TOC but if one was using a ticket on a route that wasn't intended but was valid, they might put in an easement so it's no longer valid or modify the maps. Fine if you never intend to make the journey again. Less so if you intend to do so and it no longer becomes permitted.

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