Croydon Tram Crash

[Domh245]

Can anyone think of any rail vehicles in which people have died as part of an accident where the vehicle has returned to service? There are obviously plenty of cases where other vehicles from the unit have re-entered service (e.g. 205018/205029 at Cowden), however I'm struggling to think of any recent examples where an actual vehicle has re-entered service. The Watford 321s were effectively completely new vehicles.

There were 2 C08 vehicles (6606 and 6734) which were rebuilt from the 2 vehicles from the 2005 London Bombing, although the only original bits were from the solebar down, everything above the solebar having been scrapped.

 

[Busaholic]

There were 2 C08 vehicles (6606 and 6734) which were rebuilt from the 2 vehicles from the 2005 London Bombing, although the only original bits were from the solebar down, everything above the solebar having been scrapped.

Slightly different, but perhaps worth mentioning that the Spirit of London bus that had been ordered as a one-off to replace the bus destroyed by the bomb in Tavistock Street on 7/7/05 was itself the victim of an arson attack in 2012: despite the bus being seven years old, and repairs costing £60,000, the decision was made to fork out the cash, which I suspect would not have been the case with a less iconic bus.

 

[BestWestern]

Just a load of over sensitive twaddle. Should we be scrapping every car/bus/lorry that is involved in a fatal accident with a pedestrian or cyclist, then? There have been plenty of vehicles returned to service after fatal accidents - including tube vehicles involved in fatal bombings.

If it is economically repairable, then get it back in service. If it isn't then scrap it.

Rightly or wrongly, if the media were to pick up on it their outlook would likely be very different. And we all know how much weight that carries.

 

[ComUtoR]

Can anyone think of any rail vehicles in which people have died as part of an accident where the vehicle has returned to service?

Trains hit people on a regular basis. They are returned to service. Trains also hit vehicles on crossings. I assume they are also returned to service.

 

[Antman]

Just a load of over sensitive twaddle. Should we be scrapping every car/bus/lorry that is involved in a fatal accident with a pedestrian or cyclist, then? There have been plenty of vehicles returned to service after fatal accidents - including tube vehicles involved in fatal bombings.

If it is economically repairable, then get it back in service. If it isn't then scrap it.

I totally agree.

 

[bramling]

Trains hit people on a regular basis. They are returned to service. Trains also hit vehicles on crossings. I assume they are also returned to service.

How would you feel about a train hitting a truck on a crossing and the damage being such that the train driver died of his injuries, and then subsequently driving from the same cab having been extensively repaired? Genuine question as I’m curious as to opinions on this subject.

A relative of mine lost their son in a car accident, with the car being subsequently repaired and put back on the road. They were utterly mortified to see it being driven past their house when by coincidence it was sold on to a local.

 

[Adlington]

A relative of mine lost their son in a car accident, with the car being subsequently repaired and put back on the road. They were utterly mortified to see it being driven past their house when by coincidence it was sold on to a local.

So what's your suggestion? Should the relative (or the insurance company) scrap the car and lose money?

 

[ComUtoR]

How would you feel about a train hitting a truck on a crossing and the damage being such that the train driver died of his injuries, and then subsequently driving from the same cab having been extensively repaired? Genuine question as I’m curious as to opinions on this subject.

It's a difficult question to answer as it is very personal to the person. The train is blameless and is an inanimate object. I would feel more about the death of a colleague than any specific feeling over the unit involved. I would also feel more about level crossings and drivers jumping them than about any specific unit/vehicle involved.

One of the sides of our job is dealing with incidents and knowing that at any point you may kill someone with your train. Many Drivers go through this and they get back behind the wheel, so to speak. They will drive that unit again.

What we see a lot of is that when incidents happen the person(s) involved start some form of campaign. They are very empathetic towards a cause because of what happened. No doubt my empathy towards the situation that caused an incident would also change.

A relative of mine lost their son in a car accident, with the car being subsequently repaired and put back on the road. They were utterly mortified to see it being driven past their house when by coincidence it was sold on to a local.

No doubt there is significant trauma and stress that can be induced by various triggers. However, I would also suggest that any vehicle of the same make, model and colour would trigger the same reaction. The only significant difference would be the number plate. Potentially I would consider that the vehicle registration changed but I would still find that difficult to justify.

 

[theblackwatch]

How would you feel about a train hitting a truck on a crossing and the damage being such that the train driver died of his injuries, and then subsequently driving from the same cab having been extensively repaired? Genuine question as I’m curious as to opinions on this subject.

Perhaps this is best answered by (for example) Northern traincrew who work 1564XX (identity removed - but took me 30 seconds to find out), or those who used to drive 47402 before it was sold for preservation. How many of them even know?

 

[Antman]

How would you feel about a train hitting a truck on a crossing and the damage being such that the train driver died of his injuries, and then subsequently driving from the same cab having been extensively repaired? Genuine question as I’m curious as to opinions on this subject.

A relative of mine lost their son in a car accident, with the car being subsequently repaired and put back on the road. They were utterly mortified to see it being driven past their house when by coincidence it was sold on to a local.

I'm not a train driver but if I were I don't think it would bother me one iota. What next? Houses where people have passed away having to be demolished?

 

[bramling]

It's a difficult question to answer as it is very personal to the person. The train is blameless and is an inanimate object. I would feel more about the death of a colleague than any specific feeling over the unit involved. I would also feel more about level crossings and drivers jumping them than about any specific unit/vehicle involved.

One of the sides of our job is dealing with incidents and knowing that at any point you may kill someone with your train. Many Drivers go through this and they get back behind the wheel, so to speak. They will drive that unit again.

What we see a lot of is that when incidents happen the person(s) involved start some form of campaign. They are very empathetic towards a cause because of what happened. No doubt my empathy towards the situation that caused an incident would also change.



No doubt there is significant trauma and stress that can be induced by various triggers. However, I would also suggest that any vehicle of the same make, model and colour would trigger the same reaction. The only significant difference would be the number plate. Potentially I would consider that the vehicle registration changed but I would still find that difficult to justify.

This all generally ties in with my own personal view. Personally I don't think it would bother me. However different people react in different ways and all that.

 

[bramling]

Perhaps this is best answered by (for example) Northern traincrew who work 1564XX (identity removed - but took me 30 seconds to find out), or those who used to drive 47402 before it was sold for preservation. How many of them even know?

In the case of the 156, I presume you're referring to the Ais Gill accident?

It's a fair point that few probably would even know. In the case of the Croydon tram, I suspect the problem would be when the story got blurted out by the media "Horror tram back in service" that there might be some kind of backlash, where if it weren't for publicity no one would be any the wiser.

 

[theblackwatch]

Yes that was the 156 that came to mind. There are other vehicles which have been involved in incidents that have been rebuilt, such as the 350 car which someone set themselves alight in the toilet. I'm not sure any of these things are really any different to the rebuilding of King's Cross Underground after the fire there in 1987.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm not a train driver but if I were I don't think it would bother me one iota. What next? Houses where people have passed away having to be demolished?

The Fred and Rosemary West house in Gloucester was demolished and, I believe, no other building replaced it. Just stating this as a fact, rather than an opinion as to the making of that decision.
With the tram, surely the insurance position is crucial i.e. if there has been a payout or an agreement towards one, on the vehicle. An insurance write-off would not support the tram being repaired.

 

[Antman]

The Fred and Rosemary West house in Gloucester was demolished and, I believe, no other building replaced it. Just stating this as a fact, rather than an opinion as to the making of that decision.
With the tram, surely the insurance position is crucial i.e. if there has been a payout or an agreement towards one, on the vehicle. An insurance write-off would not support the tram being repaired.

Cromwell Street was obviously exceptional circumstances. I think a cold dispassionate view has to be taken, if it's cost effective to repair it that's what should happen.

 

[swj99]

I'm not a train driver but if I were I don't think it would bother me one iota. What next? Houses where people have passed away having to be demolished?

Interesting point. I remember years ago chatting to a few new age travellers about some of the different vehicles they lived in. One of them said they'd never convert an ex ambulance into a living vehicle or a camper van because someone had probably died in it.
I suppose it's just down to personal views. Realistically, many people may have died in any given ambulance, or none at all may have died in it. But it does demonstrate the fact that some people are more bothered than others about things like this. I think it's possible to take these things too far, but again, how far is too far ?
You could say I'll never go on a motorway because someone probably died on it. Or I'll never go to a hospital because people have died there. I accept that in cases where something exceptionally terrible has happened there will be strong feelings about a place, or an object connected to a significant event, but with road vehicles, trains, trams etc, I agree it's just a machine. As long as there is no trace of anything linking it to an accident I don't see a problem with it's continued use.

 

[edwin_m]

With the tram, surely the insurance position is crucial i.e. if there has been a payout or an agreement towards one, on the vehicle. An insurance write-off would not support the tram being repaired.

Surely the only thing a write-off determines is that the vehicle becomes the property of the insurer (and the owner is paid whatever the policy dictates for such an event)?

The insurer is landed with a tram of no use to anybody except Tramlink or conceivably one of the Continental users of similar vehicles. The only way the insurer could make more than scrap value would be to sell it to one of these. Assuming there was no compunction about re-using an accident vehicle, Tramlink* would consider buying it back and fixing it cheaper than buying a new tram - and if it couldn't continue to run the service with one vehicle fewer. With Stadler specialising in small orders and the Variotram being a recent design which is probably still in production, buying another one of those might be the best option.

Another possiblity is that the tram will be stripped of useable spares, which would similarly be sold back to Tramlink* or another operator, and the bodyshell and any remaining parts would go for scrap.

*Not sure who actuallly owns the trams, TfL I think, but even if they don't TfL would have to authorise the spend.

 

[rebmcr]

I think it's worth bearing in mind that this wasn't "just an accident".

The devil is in the detail here: the severity and nature of the fatalities, the integral nature of this specific vehicle to them, and the widespread publicity of the matter all contribute to the need for special treatment.

I don't recall posters going up on stations after other rail accidents, apologising and reassuring the public.

 

[Antman]

I think it's worth bearing in mind that this wasn't "just an accident".

The devil is in the detail here: the severity and nature of the fatalities, the integral nature of this specific vehicle to them, and the widespread publicity of the matter all contribute to the need for special treatment.

I don't recall posters going up on stations after other rail accidents, apologising and reassuring the public.

I don't see what else it can be described as other than an accident?

 

[rebmcr]

I don't see what else it can be described as other than an accident?

Yes, but my point is that it's not automatically equivalent to all other fatal accidents.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm more interested now in whether there are to be any prosecutions, It is intolerable that the tram driver is 'in limbo', a year now after his initial police bail expired. It is clear from the official accident investigation reports that excessive speed was the cause of the accident, and I can't see what can possibly be delaying any decision to prosecute or not, unless it's the chaotic state the Crown Prosecution Service finds itself in.

 

[Antman]

I'm more interested now in whether there are to be any prosecutions, It is intolerable that the tram driver is 'in limbo', a year now after his initial police bail expired. It is clear from the official accident investigation reports that excessive speed was the cause of the accident, and I can't see what can possibly be delaying any decision to prosecute or not, unless it's the chaotic state the Crown Prosecution Service finds itself in.

Years ago someone I know was involved in a fatal road accident, which was traumatic enough in itself, but spent over two years with the threat of prosecution hanging over them.

 

[MotCO]

I think that the other issue regarding the tram is, if it was rebuilt, it would be used in the vacinity of the accident - it would not be used elsewhere in the country as trains could be.

With regard to rebuilding the Spirit of London, it is a different issue as it was rebuilt after an arson attack rather than a fatal accident: it is almost giving two fingers to the arsonists.

 

[Antman]

I think that the other issue regarding the tram is, if it was rebuilt, it would be used in the vacinity of the accident - it would not be used elsewhere in the country as trains could be.

With regard to rebuilding the Spirit of London, it is a different issue as it was rebuilt after an arson attack rather than a fatal accident: it is almost giving two fingers to the arsonists.

Obviously if the tram was repaired it would pass the scene of the accident numerous times a day.

In the case of the Spirit of London bus, I doubt if the arsonist would have even been aware of the significance of the bus and I'm pretty sure it would have been scrapped had it been beyond economical repair.

 

[Adlington]

the tram driver is 'in limbo'[...] excessive speed was the cause of the accident

What does this "in limbo" mean in practice, apart from waiting for a possible legal action? Is the driver suspended on full pay? Still working? Sacked, as I guess speeding (nearly 4 times the limit) is a serious disciplinary offence?

 

[Antman]

What does this "in limbo" mean in practice, apart from waiting for a possible legal action? Is the driver suspended on full pay? Still working? Sacked, as I guess speeding (nearly 4 times the limit) is a serious disciplinary offence?

Suspended on full pay as far as I'm aware? Doesn't alter the fact that he is in limbo though.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A relative of mine lost their son in a car accident, with the car being subsequently repaired and put back on the road. They were utterly mortified to see it being driven past their house when by coincidence it was sold on to a local.

Different people cope in different ways. My wife's father committed suicide in their family car, but they continued to use it for quite some time after it was returned by the police.

The Fred and Rosemary West house in Gloucester was demolished and, I believe, no other building replaced it. Just stating this as a fact, rather than an opinion as to the making of that decision.

Yet the flat in Muswell Hill where Dennis Nilsson killed all those young men anf flushed their remains down the toilet was sold last year for nearly half a million quid. It was on the next street from where I lived. You wouldn't have known unless you knew.

In the case of the Spirit of London bus, I doubt if the arsonist would have even been aware of the significance of the bus and I'm pretty sure it would have been scrapped had it been beyond economical repair.

It was beyond economical repair, but Stagecoach paid for it to be repaired anyway, giving two fingers to the arsonists. Any other E400 would have been scrapped. So it's almost the opposite of what we're talking about.

FWIW I'd be amazed if the tram is rebuilt, I can't imagine it would be economical to repair it rather than replace it with new, particularly as it is a standard tram which is still available for sale. They'll cannibalise it for spare parts.

 

[Antman]

Different people cope in different ways. My wife's father committed suicide in their family car, but they continued to use it for quite some time after it was returned by the police.



Yet the flat in Muswell Hill where Dennis Nilsson killed all those young men anf flushed their remains down the toilet was sold last year for nearly half a million quid. It was on the next street from where I lived. You wouldn't have known unless you knew.



It was beyond economical repair, but Stagecoach paid for it to be repaired anyway, giving two fingers to the arsonists. Any other E400 would have been scrapped. So it's almost the opposite of what we're talking about.

FWIW I'd be amazed if the tram is rebuilt, I can't imagine it would be economical to repair it rather than replace it with new, particularly as it is a standard tram which is still available for sale. They'll cannibalise it for spare parts.

If Stagecoach choose to foot the bill that's up to them but I'm pretty sure their insurers wouldn't have done. The fact that the bus was in Walthamstow on route 69 I believe says it all, wasn't the idea that it would be kept on route 30? Even before Stagecoach lost the 30 it was normally on other less high profile routes and it's currently at North Street garage in Romford so never gets anywhere near Central London. If it were scrapped tomorrow would anybody other than a few bus enthusiasts bat an eyelid? That said I believe it is going to a museum when it's withdrawn from service? If it were really about sticking two fingers up to the arsonists then every bus that's been burned out would be repaired regardless of cost but clearly reality has to take over at some point.

As for the tram, I'm no expert but I'd have thought it was repairable, presumably the damage is largely restricted to one side?

 

[bluegoblin7]

as it is a standard tram which is still available for sale.

There's pretty much no such thing as a standard tram, every UK system is different (and different again to most continental systems) and this point is nicely backed up with the not insignificant modifications required when the Stadlers were introduced.

Whilst still available, the CR4000 design is now over twenty years old and it would make more sense (if the costs stacked up) to order an additional Stadler if required.

 

[rebmcr]

Whilst still available, the CR4000 design is now over twenty years old and it would make more sense (if the costs stacked up) to order an additional Stadler if required.

There might be an opportunity for an add-on order to the last batch of M5000s which were recently ordered.