Croydon Tram Shortage.

[SECR263]

PIS saying shortage of trams causing delays on Beckenham Elmers end routes. Any reasons why please. Thanks

 

[Thirteen]

I would guess the CR4000s are the issue rather than the newer Variobahns.

 

[Snow1964]

From latest TfL Commissioner report (page 22)

Trams rolling stock replacement programme
Our rolling stock replacement programme will replace the life-expired Bombardier CR4000 trams, which are becoming less reliable and have one of the lowest states of good repair categorisations across our fleets. Following detailed consideration of the options, it was decided that the best value-for-money option to address these problems was to replace the CR4000 trams.
The programme is likely to start procurement activities in late 2023. However, the full funding for replacement trams, alongside other rolling stock, has not yet been established.

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s19828/Commissioners%20Report%20March%202023.pdf

So looks like planning to replace the CR4000

 

[507 001]

23 years to be considered life expired?! Doesn’t bode well for our M5000s!

 

[Starmill]

23 years to be considered life expired?! Doesn’t bode well for our M5000s!

To be fair to the CR4000, they did start testing from the end of 1998. Replacements could be ordered around the start of next year if TfL can arrange the budget for them so, delivery wouldn't be until 2025-26. The original fleet would therefore do approximately 28 years. If replacements aren't ordered until the end of 2024 or into 2025 because budget cannot be found, they may do 30 years.

Of course, you're right that even that isn't terribly impressive, but I agree that given the current state of the M5000 fleet, by the time they reach 26-28 years of age, they may very well be uneconomic to maintain and should also go.

 

[etr221]

Wondering how the K4000s built a slightly earlier are getting on in Cologne? They, AIUI, only differ from the CR4000s in details. And IIRC there was another batch of essentially the same trams built for somewhere else (Sweden? Netherlands?) at about the same time. Are these up up for replacement?

 

[507 001]

To be fair to the CR4000, they did start testing from the end of 1998. Replacements could be ordered around the start of next year if TfL can arrange the budget for them so, delivery wouldn't be until 2025-26. The original fleet would therefore do approximately 28 years. If replacements aren't ordered until the end of 2024 or into 2025 because budget cannot be found, they may do 30 years.

Of course, you're right that even that isn't terribly impressive, but I agree that given the current state of the M5000 fleet, by the time they reach 26-28 years of age, they may very well be uneconomic to maintain and should also go.

Considering Bombardier promised us a lifespan of 35-40 years it really isn't good!

I wonder how much is down to a lack of being looked after, like our T68 fleet? An unwillingness to spend money on heavy overhauls etc shortened their working lives by a considerable amount. A shame really as the T68 was by far and away the superior machine in terms of suitability to the network, they could have been superb. From a couple of people I know who work at Croydon, they feel the same way about their flexities.

Ironically with the M5000s, the batch 7 fleet (i.e. the newest ones) are the most unreliable...

Wondering how the K4000s built a slightly earlier are getting on in Cologne? They, AIUI, only differ from the CR4000s in details. And IIRC there was another batch of essentially the same trams built for somewhere else (Sweden? Netherlands?) at about the same time. Are these up up for replacement?

I haven't heard any horror stories about the K4500s or 5000s, and considering Koln have just bought a fleet of HF6s from Bombardier/Alstom, they can't be too dissatisfied.

 

[Thirteen]

To be fair to the CR4000, they did start testing from the end of 1998. Replacements could be ordered around the start of next year if TfL can arrange the budget for them so, delivery wouldn't be until 2025-26. The original fleet would therefore do approximately 28 years. If replacements aren't ordered until the end of 2024 or into 2025 because budget cannot be found, they may do 30 years.

Of course, you're right that even that isn't terribly impressive, but I agree that given the current state of the M5000 fleet, by the time they reach 26-28 years of age, they may very well be uneconomic to maintain and should also go.

I assume that TfL will opt for something off the shelf with the tram replacement like they did with the Variobahns which were ordered in 2011 and were in service within eight months which is incredibly fast.

In terms of options, the Stadler TINA would be good, the advantage is that it's the latest tram from Stadler with orders from both Germany and the Netherlands and given TfL already have Variobahns from Stadler, there is an existing relationship plus it'll mean they can have one supplier for trams rather than two.

In regards to the M5000s, I would assume that any replacement would need to be bespoke rather than off the shelf.

 

[Snow1964]

In regards to the M5000s, I would assume that any replacement would need to be bespoke rather than off the shelf.

I guess it might be cheaper to buy an existing design, but if the length is slightly longer, would difference in price be less than cost of platform extensions.

In very rough terms for each new tram, there are are 2 platforms. So if saved say £20k per tram by going standard, rather than bespoke, have £10k for each platform. (values are examples, not actuals)

 

[edwin_m]

In regards to the M5000s, I would assume that any replacement would need to be bespoke rather than off the shelf.

Metrolink was designed around the Stadtbahn-B, and there are quite a few high floor networks in Germany that use the same specification. The M5000 is closely based on the vehicle used for the high floor routes in Koeln (where the Croydon vehicle was based on the similar design for Koeln low-floor routes).

I guess it might be cheaper to buy an existing design, but if the length is slightly longer, would difference in price be less than cost of platform extensions.

In very rough terms for each new tram, there are are 2 platforms. So if saved say £20k per tram by going standard, rather than bespoke, have £10k for each platform. (values are examples, not actuals)

Some platform extensions will be much more tricky. The most obvious example is East Croydon where little or any extension is possible (particularly for the middle platform) without affecting the curves and junctions each end.

Tram suppliers are used to varying their designs to accommodate different lengths.

 

[craigybagel]

I suppose one benefit of the Croydon tram network now being limited to 70kmh and not the previous 80kmh is it does increase the available off the shelf options for fleet replacement?

 

[507 001]

I guess it might be cheaper to buy an existing design, but if the length is slightly longer, would difference in price be less than cost of platform extensions.

In very rough terms for each new tram, there are are 2 platforms. So if saved say £20k per tram by going standard, rather than bespoke, have £10k for each platform. (values are examples, not actuals)

Any extra length could be accommodated already by simply pushing the door positions to the ends of the platforms and moving the disabled access points.

Any M5000 replacement (in another 15 or so years) would likely be bespoke I would say, off the shelf doesn’t really work (as demonstrated quite successfully by the M5000, about the only thing they do successfully…)

 

[Thirteen]

According to Andy Lord in the most recent TfL board meeting, the CR4000s can last until 2028 but given the issues at the moment, I suspect they'll be replaced a lot sooner.

 

[Energy]

Stadler still makes the Variobahn, I'd expect TfL to buy more of them.

I assume that TfL will opt for something off the shelf with the tram replacement like they did with the Variobahns which were ordered in 2011 and were in service within eight months which is incredibly fast.

The first 3 were increadibly quick because they were originally for Bergen, Norway. Stadler built them early to use spare factory space and as such sent them to London with enough time in the Bergen contract to build replacement ones.

 

[Thirteen]

Stadler still makes the Variobahn, I'd expect TfL to buy more of them.

The first 3 were increadibly quick because they were originally for Bergen, Norway. Stadler built them early to use spare factory space and as such sent them to London with enough time in the Bergen contract to build replacement ones.

I doubt they'd go the Variobahns, I think the TINA is more likely if TfL choose Stadler.

 

[Snow1964]

I doubt they'd go the Variobahns, I think the TINA is more likely if TfL choose Stadler.

The Variobahn is a 30 year old design

TINA (which is a German acronym of Totally integrated low floor drive) is a much newer design so logically the one to go for, even if there remain a dozen older trams in fleet.

 

[507 001]

By all accounts the staff dislike the Variobahn intensely…

 

[busesrusuk]

By all accounts the staff dislike the Variobahn intensely…

why???

 

[507 001]

why???

No swivelling bogies so they’re rougher in curves, slow doors and they apparently don’t quite fit on the platforms.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The passengers aren't too key neither or certainly this one is not

 

[AY1975]

I had an email from TfL yesterday warning that London Tram services would be significantly disrupted this week due to wheel damage being found during an inspection of some of the trams which had to be taken out of service for repair. At the moment the TfL website is showing "good service" on London Trams, though.

 

[m79900]

23 years to be considered life expired?! Doesn’t bode well for our M5000s!

Trams don't generally last as long as trains, t68s were about 20, t69s just 15. the super tram ones in sheffield are the exception, but that's probably because they're German!

 

[Energy]

Trams don't generally last as long as trains, t68s were about 20, t69s just 15. the super tram ones in sheffield are the exception, but that's probably because they're German!

The T69s and T68s were built by AnsaldoBreda... not famed for their quality.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Trams generally have an expected life span of 25-30 years. Replacement of the Supertram fleet (31) and Croydon fleet (25) is becoming a fairly "urgent" priority for both relevant local authorities (Sheffield, Croydon [linked previously above]).

 

[507 001]

Trams don't generally last as long as trains, t68s were about 20, t69s just 15. the super tram ones in sheffield are the exception, but that's probably because they're German!

That’s news to me considering we’re expecting a 35 year life for our M5000s.

The only reason the T68s went when they did is TfGM didn’t want to pay to maintain the two separate fleets, and therefore refused to put them through midlife overhauls.

 

[Thirteen]

I get the feeling that the CR4000s are going to have to be replaced sooner than 2028.

 

[m79900]

That’s news to me considering we’re expecting a 35 year life for our M5000s.

The only reason the T68s went when they did is TfGM didn’t want to pay to maintain the two separate fleets, and therefore refused to put them through midlife overhauls.

35 years?!
Wow.

 

[Nym]

The CR4000s are in need of some very significant heavy overhaul items, and TfL is as ever unwilling to pay for anything that isn't in the maintenance manual, has been the way on that fleet for at least the last 10 years.

 

[ivzem]

Wondering how the K4000s built a slightly earlier are getting on in Cologne? They, AIUI, only differ from the CR4000s in details.

Full replacement ordered in 2020: https://www.urban-transport-magazin...nfirms-large-order-of-new-low-floor-tramways/

 

[Bucephalus]

So hopefully that means there will be a handful of k4000s up for grabs right? Even if they're no good they could be cannibalised for spares surely