Cumbrian Coast Loco Hauled Stock

[70014IronDuke]

I suspect things are rather confused by politicians referring to when the passenger accommodation is being upgraded, I can well believe the Minister doesn't think different locomotives is even vaguely relevant to passengers. ... .

But nobody seems to have made complaints about the Mk II carriages. On the contrary, there have been comments a long way back as to how the LHCS is appreciated by punters. It's when the trains fail, as they do sadly too often, and on critical morning commuter services, that must drive folks away in the cars, bikes or whatever.

 

[NORTHERNSOUL]

That's a lot of late kids when the train fails and stops dead at Wigton!
But at least it's daylight waiting at Barrow and Roose in the morning. If the late afternoon/evening LHCS trains fail on the Coast proper, any kids are gonna be waiting in the dark. Can't be much fun if they are on the lonely stations.

That was my point exactly and its time the local MP.s made Northern account for their lack of action without resorting to crap about stock at other companies.

I would of thought as a bare minimum why couldn't they have been top and tailing with two 37.s then if one failed the other could take over isnt that what they've been doing down in East Anglia which is probably why we don't hear about any failures down there as the number of times both units fail will be very rare i would of thought.

 

[30907]

I would of thought as a bare minimum why couldn't they have been top and tailing with two 37.s then if one failed the other could take over isnt that what they've been doing down in East Anglia which is probably why we don't hear about any failures down there as the number of times both units fail will be very rare i would of thought.

Top and tail simply means you don't have to run round the train at each terminus - the second loco is effectively being dragged, not worked in multiple with the front one. This happened at the beginning, but a DBSO or DVT is much more economical (100 tons of dead weight...).
You could, I imagine, double head each train, but you are still massively increasing operating costs (and DRS would have to have 4 locos available every day).

 

[NORTHERNSOUL]

Top and tail simply means you don't have to run round the train at each terminus - the second loco is effectively being dragged, not worked in multiple with the front one. This happened at the beginning, but a DBSO or DVT is much more economical (100 tons of dead weight...).
You could, I imagine, double head each train, but you are still massively increasing operating costs (and DRS would have to have 4 locos available every day).

Well at the last count they owned 21 with 3 of them about to be released from duties in East Anglia [ which all appear to be pretty reliable ] and as i say they been operated that way down there so i.d say the cost differential isnt as great as you're making out. But any cost difference should be borne by Northern as they are the ones who won a franchise to operate the service in the manner specified and if they cant do that then its nobodies fault but their own.And after all you.d think a company of Arriva,s size would be able to go out and acquire some stock of some sort from somewhere if theyre not happy with the arrangement with DRS.Personally, i think if the service between Barrow and Carlisle was just handed over to DRS and let them run it with whatever they like it would improve overnight afterall they have an inbuilt interest in making it run correctly dont they ?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Well at the last count they owned 21 with 3 of them about to be released from duties in East Anglia [ which all appear to be pretty reliable ] and as i say they been operated that way down there so i.d say the cost differential isnt as great as you're making out. But any cost difference should be borne by Northern as they are the ones who won a franchise to operate the service in the manner specified and if they cant do that then its nobodies fault but their own.And after all you.d think a company of Arriva,s size would be able to go out and acquire some stock of some sort from somewhere if theyre not happy with the arrangement with DRS.Personally, i think if the service between Barrow and Carlisle was just handed over to DRS and let them run it with whatever they like it would improve overnight afterall they have an inbuilt interest in making it run correctly dont they ?

Firstly the current arrangement was forced on Northern as the least worse solution to deal with the loss of the 170/3 fleet to Chiltern. This happened at the behest of the DfT and they (the DfT) would also have been well aware of the risks arising from the solution currently in place.

Secondly just where do you suppose Arriva are going to find this "stock from somewhere"? There is currently a very real shortage of DMUs affecting many TOCs and routes around the country. Spare DMUs waiting for an operator simply do not exist. And loco haulage is not only expensive but also relies on the use of very old rolling stock which may superficially appear more comfortable but is a maintenance headache thanks to the ancient air-conditioning kit as well as being generally "tired". At least the Cumbrian Coast diagrams are not too demanding in terms of wear and tear arising from fast running!

Thirdly you can't simply hand over the route to DRS. Northern have the franchise from the DfT who are well aware of the current shortcomings and how they have come about. As for DRS running the route "with whatever they like", words fail me...

 

[Bletchleyite]

In a joined up world, it would make more sense to me to put LHCS on something like the North Wales Coast and release 15x via a cascade.

 

[NORTHERNSOUL]

Firstly the current arrangement was forced on Northern as the least worse solution to deal with the loss of the 170/3 fleet to Chiltern. This happened at the behest of the DfT and they (the DfT) would also have been well aware of the risks arising from the solution currently in place.

Secondly just where do you suppose Arriva are going to find this "stock from somewhere"? There is currently a very real shortage of DMUs affecting many TOCs and routes around the country. Spare DMUs waiting for an operator simply do not exist. And loco haulage is not only expensive but also relies on the use of very old rolling stock which may superficially appear more comfortable but is a maintenance headache thanks to the ancient air-conditioning kit as well as being generally "tired". At least the Cumbrian Coast diagrams are not too demanding in terms of wear and tear arising from fast running!

Thirdly you can't simply hand over the route to DRS. Northern have the franchise from the DfT who are well aware of the current shortcomings and how they have come about. As for DRS running the route "with whatever they like", words fail me...

Fully aware of what caused it and that's why the MPs should be kicking in the doors of everyone concerned till they get a solution that's acceptable to the Cumbrian Public.

And yes there's a shortage but for example, for 5 months there's been no trains to Blackpool North so all those that you used to see sat in the platforms at BPN must be sat somewhere and could at least have been used till Easter. And not sure why you're bringing air conditioning into it as that's something you'd need on about 5 days a year [if you're very lucky] in West Cumbria

Well if they can sub out the running of certain services to DRS, there's no reason why they couldn't do the rest. In fact about 10 years ago DRS did actually run some services on the old Northerns behalf.

 

[Lrd]

In a joined up world, it would make more sense to me to put LHCS on something like the North Wales Coast and release 15x via a cascade.

There already are loco hauled trains on the North Wales coast. The WAG plus the Manchester runs.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Well if they can sub out the running of certain services to DRS no reason why they couldnt do the rest in fact about 10 years ago DRS did actually run some services on the old Northerns behalf.

No they didn’t

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Fully aware of what caused it and that's why the MP.s should be kicking in the doors of everyone concerned till they get a solution that's acceptable to the Cumbrian Public.

The DfT can be found at Great Minster House, Horseferry Road, London. But I expect that kicking in doors will see you removed from the premises.

And yes there's a shortage but for example, for 5 months there's been no trains to Blackpool North so all those that you used to see sat in the platforms at BPN must be sat somewhere and could at least have been used till Easter.

And how many of those units are 150s? Which cannot be used on the Cumbrian Coast because they don't fit!

And not sure why you're bringing air conditioning into it as thats something you'd need on about 5 days a year [if your very lucky] in West Cumbria

Our climate tends to be damp pretty much all year round. Air-conditioned stock is fairly well sealed. So failure to run the air-conditioning just about every day soon leads to a musty atmosphere on board with the possibility of mildew, etc.

Well if they can sub out the running of certain services to DRS no reason why they couldn't do the rest in fact about 10 years ago DRS did actually run some services on the old Northerns behalf.

No they didn't. They ran a temporary emergency service between Workington and Maryport on behalf of, and directly funded by, our old friends the DfT. This was to provide some local relief following the destruction of the nearby road bridge over the River Derwent following the disastrous flooding in the area.

 

[Tringonometry]

Personally, i think if the service between Barrow and Carlisle was just handed over to DRS and let them run it with whatever they like it would improve overnight afterall they have an inbuilt interest in making it run correctly dont they ?

Thanks for that. I'll meet you at the jobcentre, I guess.

 

[Cumberlandkev]

37’s on both sets today

 

[70014IronDuke]

37’s on both sets today

The somewhat ironic result of rumours that 68s will take over seems to have produced a relatively trouble-free performance by the 37s - at least for the past 8 days, when the first 68 set was originally thought to be taking up the reins of power.

 

[LeylandLen]

37’s on both sets today

I have seen them 37402 and 37424 (also known as 37558 )

 

[47802]

I have seen them 37402 and 37424 (also known as 37558 )

Well they could try renumbering 424 as 68 558 maybe it will make it more reliable, I expect it would be good enough to fool some MP's!

 

[Cumberlandkev]

Yes, 37558 and 37402 today. Went down to Preston for the 1003 to Barrow behind 558 and then 402 for the Barrow - Carlisle leg. The views were brilliant today, very cold outside but crystal clear. One of my favourite train journeys ( accompanied by a bottle or two of Lancaster Blonde and Ghost Ship). Bliss. Not a 68 to be seen until Sellafield!

 

[Tringonometry]

0515CARPRE an hour late leaving Carlisle as DRS had no one to prep it this morning.

0546BIFCAR a 156 as DRS couldn't provide anything.

But, yeah ... it's all Northern's drivers' fault.

 

[stu99]

The 0515 only got to Whitehaven, what was the issue, was it a problem with the brakes as stated on RTT?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y50533/2018/02/07/advanced

 

[47802]

Oh dear, want to commute on the Cumbrian Coast, forget it buy a car instead.

I'm intending to catch the Preston tomorrow or more likely see what turns up if anything.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I must have jinxed it by saying how good it seems lately. Today is an absolute horror day. Barely any trains on or near time.

 

[Tringonometry]

The 0515 only got to Whitehaven, what was the issue, was it a problem with the brakes as stated on RTT?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y50533/2018/02/07/advanced

Afraid so.

 

[sd0733]

37407 was out on test at Crewe today may be this will end up on the coast for a short period.

 

[Grannyjoans]

This problem could easily be solved by putting some 68s on the Cumbrian coast passenger service and putting the 37's back on the nuclear flask.

68s are reliable on anything, and the 37s were reliable on the flasks, but not on services which have to stop and start every 5 to 10 minutes.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

This problem could easily be solved by putting some 68s on the Cumbrian coast passenger service and putting the 37's back on the nuclear flask.

68s are reliable on anything, and the 37s were reliable on the flasks, but not on services which have to stop and start every 5 to 10 minutes.

Such an obvious solution, I wonder why the industry itself hasn't thought of it...

 

[themiller]

Such an obvious solution, I wonder why the industry itself hasn't thought of it...

Doing that would require the 2 37s of the LHCS to cover one flask train. You'd then need 4 68s to come off flasks to go onto LHCS. Do DRS have that many spare 68s? Do they have the extra 2 37s to cover the other flask job?

 

[37038]

68s won't happen yet. They're significantly more expensive to use and no one is prepared to foot the bill.

As mentioned, the 37s have had a good start to the year. One day in January where nothing much ran. Not much to do with failures on the 37's part.

Couple of DBSO failures the other day and 402 had a snow related horn issue.

 

[Cletus]

Saw this on a trip report by LSG/47403

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lsgs-getting-out-n-about.160247/#post-3327051

At the Metrocentre I bumped into an old Railway friend, who I hadn't seen for a good while, he asked where I'd been, told him getting the 37s in before they're pulled, been chasing 37424. He told me, apparently they're not pulling them now, apparently Northern aren't too keen on the 68s and have requested to keep the 37's, adding there must be something in it too because 37407 is going up to Kingmoor next week.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Doing that would require the 2 37s of the LHCS to cover one flask train. You'd then need 4 68s to come off flasks to go onto LHCS. Do DRS have that many spare 68s? Do they have the extra 2 37s to cover the other flask job?

Exactly. And I'm sure DRS would be really happy at the prospect of two flask trains having to rely on dinosaur power. I have said before that the current situation is the least worst solution and will be done away with as soon as Northern has sufficient DMUs which will be to the great relief of all concerned bar the enthusiasts who only travel the route occasionally.

 

[Grannyjoans]

Was told statistically the 37's only haul 0.04% of Northern's services yet these sets cause a total of 11% of all Northern's failure related delays! Mostly due to electrical faults relating to the DBSO's rather than the 37's themselves.

 

[Olankenny]

I do wonder why nobody seems to have asked WCRC for assistance. Plenty of locos sitting idle at Carnforth. When was the last time one of their diesels broke down? Lend a couple to Northern and everything could be sorted?
Only this morning both 37s running late due to "an obstruction" between Barrow and Carlisle.
Northern just don't seem to have any luck on this line!