Cycle symbols on/near carriage doors

[brianthegiant]

With a number of TOCs the bicycle symbol on or near the door adjacent to the cycle compartment is really hard to see on an incoming train, for example on EMT it is often a small white symbol on yellow background on pacers. On 222s its a white symbol on (wait for it...) white background! (albeit slightly different shade of white..). Conversely on ATW 158s for example you get a decent sized white symbol on blue background (ie the standard highway colours for cycle signage) & easy to spot from a distance.

I have good eyesight & I find some of them difficult to see on an incoming train, I imagine for anyone who wears glasses or is less familiar with train formations (i.e. where to look) they are almost useless.
Whilst on 222s etc you can also tell which end is which from the black or yellow coupler, most people wont know about that & it doesnt help with HSTs, pacers, etc,

I would have thought it would be in TOC interests to make cycle compartments easy to find, since loading cycles can be the critical timeline in station dwell times, of particular importance if a train is or is at risk of running late.
Is anyone aware of specific regulations which would apply to the legibility of of symbols on the side of trains, eg should be visible from a cetain distance, or to comply with accessibilty requirements for example

 

[gordonthemoron]

are there any cycle symbols on HSTs or east coast electrics?

 

[HSTfan!!!]

there is a symbol on the FGW HST TGS, I'm sure XC are the same.

 

[Drsatan]

The cycle logo on FGW's 150s, 153s and 158s is so small that it's difficult to see from a distance.

 

[sprinterguy]

Once upon a time, BR applied a blue stripe above the windows on Sprinter classes to denote where the cycle space was located, now whatever happened to that bright idea?

With Pacers, it was always the outer ends of the trains, as that was where the longitudinal seats that could be folded flat against the walls were located. I think this is still the case, although I know some revisions have been made to the interiors of some units. Would be nice nonetheless if some sort of signage was provided telling people of this.

I agree that suitable signage denoting where the cycle storage area is on trains is generally inadequate to help locate it. On many modern DMU and EMU designs, where it’s difficult to work out which part of the train is which at the best of times, even for someone with a knowledge of railways, I’m sure that it can be a nightmare finding where to load bikes onboard. With HSTs and East Coasts’ 225s, it’s not as relevant as bikes are kept in the guards’ van, or sometimes I take it in the TGS on HSTs, which is separate from the passenger accommodation and it’s easy enough to know to stand where the correct end of the train will stop. Problems occur if you’re standing at the wrong end of the platform, due to a train being in reverse formation, or if the guard has decided to unlock the guard’s van at the other end of the train on an HST, or even if you are just unfamiliar with the normal train formation which is perfectly plausible for most people.

East Coast state that bikes are carried in the guards’ van on all services: Can anyone clarify for me if East Coast use the van at the same end of the train for both HSTs and 225s, i.e. the south end, for bike storage? As with the HSTs there’s a guards’ van at both ends of the train, which could lead to trouble.

 

[stut]

East Coast state that bikes are carried in the guards’ van on all services: Can anyone clarify for me if East Coast use the van at the same end of the train for both HSTs and 225s, i.e. the south end, for bike storage? As with the HSTs there’s a guards’ van at both ends of the train, which could lead to trouble.

Nope, they use opposite ends. Which is a barrel of laughs when you're on a crowded Peterborough station platform, there's a substitution the platform staff didn't know about, and a delay's eaten into any catchup time.

Again.

I barely know where to head on trains now. Half the TOCs just tell you to use the vestibules, others are stricter. The ones that need reservations, well, some need can't issue them on the day and usually accept you anyway, if you can fit. And you can never guarantee it. Some of them it's marked, some it's completely unmarked. Some of them it's shared with disabled space, some it's usually used for luggage.

Still, it normally works, just about.

 

[sprinterguy]

Nope, they use opposite ends. Which is a barrel of laughs when you're on a crowded Peterborough station platform, there's a substitution the platform staff didn't know about, and a delay's eaten into any catchup time.

Again.

hock: Amazing, you would have at least thought they would use the same end of the train on both train types. My Uncle does regular cycling holidays by train that can involve up to three changes enroute. It bemuses me that he arrives at his destination at all! Taking bikes on trains seems like a total farce: Cyclists appear to be low on the list of TOCs' priorities!

 

[shinkansen1966]

With a number of TOCs the bicycle symbol on or near the door adjacent to the cycle compartment is really hard to see on an incoming train, for example on EMT it is often a small white symbol on yellow background on pacers.

A few months ago, I had a bad experience with my bike at Wellingborough, trying to board an EMT train. An EMT HST pulled in. With my bike, ran to the back of the train to the guards' van, which was locked. Ran the length of the train, passed the guard, to the to guards van at the front, which was locked. Thought about trying to get my bike in through one of the regular passengers doors and leave it in the vestibule. Then the train pulled off without me.

 

[Geezertronic]

A few months ago, I had a bad experience with my bike at Wellingborough, trying to board an EMT train. An EMT HST pulled in. With my bike, ran to the back of the train to the guards' van, which was locked. Ran the length of the train, passed the guard, to the to guards van at the front, which was locked. Thought about trying to get my bike in through one of the regular passengers doors and leave it in the vestibule. Then the train pulled off without me.

Did you ask the guard and what did he/she say?

 

[mumrar]

for example on EMT it is often a small white symbol on yellow background on pacers.

I know it's not an answer to the question at hand, but EMT do no operate Pacers.

 

[jopsuk]

hock: Amazing, you would have at least thought they would use the same end of the train on both train types. My Uncle does regular cycling holidays by train that can involve up to three changes enroute. It bemuses me that he arrives at his destination at all! Taking bikes on trains seems like a total farce: Cyclists appear to be low on the list of TOCs' priorities!

On the HSTs, it's at the TGS end- which is at the north end- that's where the Guard's office is
On the 225s, it is in the DVT, which is at the south end- that's where the guard's office is.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

BUT an HST does from time to time end up on a 225 diagram, which means you have to leg it 9 coaches along the platform past everyone waiting to get on and those getting off!

 

[prod_pep]

On Merseyrail, there are two cycle spaces per 3-car set, located on the inner end of each driving motor vehicle. There include two bike parks per space, so four bikes can be carried per 3-car train.

At the outer ends are the wheelchair spaces, which are much more clearly marked outside with stickers on the door windows. The cycle spaces have a rather inconspicuous blue sticker alongside the door which most people seem to miss.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen the disabled space with a bike wedged in, with the cycle space at the other end of the car completely empty!

 

[jamesontheroad]

Once upon a time, BR applied a blue stripe above the windows on Sprinter classes to denote where the cycle space was located, now whatever happened to that bright idea?

+1

Trainspotters everywhere would hate me, but if I were in charge I would completely ban the practice of repainting rolling stock into operators' colours. As is the plan in Scotland, trains should just have a single, uniform livery that stays almost exactly the same, save for a few modest logos, when a franchise changes.

And recalling BR days, there should be a clearly visible yellow strip above first class and a similarly visible location for bicycles. Our system is so unfriendly to bikes, which is crazy considering the number of new journey possibilities they would open up for passengers.

 

[CarterUSM]

+1

Trainspotters everywhere would hate me, but if I were in charge I would completely ban the practice of repainting rolling stock into operators' colours. As is the plan in Scotland, trains should just have a single, uniform livery that stays almost exactly the same, save for a few modest logos, when a franchise changes.

And recalling BR days, there should be a clearly visible yellow strip above first class and a similarly visible location for bicycles. Our system is so unfriendly to bikes, which is crazy considering the number of new journey possibilities they would open up for passengers.

I think in general you are correct, though the Scotrail 156's are pretty generous to bicycles in my opinion. Other units less so.

 

[jopsuk]

I've heard tale of commuter trains in California that have space for upwards of thirty bicycles- though the trains themselves are double decker.

Mindyou, around Cambridge two bikes per vestibule (even on 8 car trains) is not unheard of- the rules are (thankfully for my occasional use) not enforced

 

[Electrostar]

Some German multiple units feature a cycle symbol that are almost the same height as the doors.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Virgin have put blue plates on lightposts/walls etc where Coach A (the bike storage coach) on 390s stops at stations. Shame you can only see them when you're stood about 2ft away though! Good idea NTL.

 

[brianthegiant]

Some German multiple units feature a cycle symbol that are almost the same height as the doors.

ah yes, I know the ones you mean, should have got a photo when i was there, this is a bit smaller than the one you refer to, but still an improvement on what we get:

 

[90019]

though the Scotrail 156's are pretty generous to bicycles in my opinion. Other units less so.

The 158s are good as well, I think most, if not all, have bike spaces in both coaches.

 

[CarterUSM]

The 158s are good as well, I think most, if not all, have bike spaces in both coaches.

yes, they're pretty good too, though if memory serves, the old tatty silver bullets less so.

 

[brianthegiant]

+1
Trainspotters everywhere would hate me, but if I were in charge I would completely ban the practice of repainting rolling stock into operators' colours.

not sure I completely agree, current arrangement does at least mean stock is repainted & so looks less tatty (than some of the BR stock used to..)
but there needs more standardisation (eg confusion for visitors betwen maps & brand names eg FCC or thameslink)

however I think you've hit the nub of the problem here, I suspect that decsions on size & type of bike symbols etc is currently being driven by graphic designers, who dont want to clutter their slick lines etc. so complaining to TOCS might be fruitless... seems to me that this a franchising issue. whilst there are rules about different coloured doors etc, there is no standard for non safety / accessibility related signage ( not that I can find on bsol.bsi.com anway..) so maybe it's an issues to take up with DfT & campaign groups

 

[starrymarkb]

Some German multiple units feature a cycle symbol that are almost the same height as the doors.

Like this? http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/66/BR481neu2.jpg

 

[Electrostar]

No the multiple unit I'm thinking of is in DB red with a slanted bike running from the skirt to almost the roof line.

 

[brianthegiant]

One could argue that since the colour scheme is effectively synonymous with the graphics applied to the vehicle, then if that colour scheme hinders the legibility of cycle symbols it is in breach of the rail vehcile accessibility regulations 1998 which states:
... they (graphics)should not compete for attention with important information on the vehicle exterior. The doors, the door controls and any signage must be as visible with the application of the graphics as they would be without.

in full here:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/transportfory...a/rvareg1998/accessibilityregulations19986140

hmm...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
by coincidence I just heard about an EMT /SWTR stakeholder meeting at the british library tommorow, have asked a fellow cycle campaigner to mention this..

 

[pappleby]

I tried to put my cycle on a Hst at loughborough last week,looked for the 'cycle logo' as it sped in,could'nt see it,went to to the other end,could'nt see it,station staff blew her whistle,off it went to Nottingham less me and cycle,absolute farce if you ask me.

 

[krus_aragon]

I tried to put my cycle on a Hst at loughborough last week,looked for the 'cycle logo' as it sped in,could'nt see it,went to to the other end,could'nt see it,station staff blew her whistle,off it went to Nottingham less me and cycle,absolute farce if you ask me.

Ah, joy.

I've learnt by observation that cycle storage on the long distance units I've used (FGW HSTs, Virgin Voyagers) is at the end opposite first class. I'd spotted this beforehand as a foot passenger, however.

 

[asylumxl]

I tried to put my cycle on a Hst at loughborough last week,looked for the 'cycle logo' as it sped in,could'nt see it,went to to the other end,could'nt see it,station staff blew her whistle,off it went to Nottingham less me and cycle,absolute farce if you ask me.

Did you talk to/shout to the guard? He or she must have been on the platform somewhere.

Even so, why not e-mail EMT and tell them how dissatisfied you were with their service? You never know, may get some results out of it.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

This is why I invested - well one of the reasons - in a Brompton. It can go anywhere and there are no time restrictions. The only restriction that I've found anywhere is on the buses in Cambridge where the %$^&£%^*£s won't allow it on a bus unless it's in a bag. The entire bottom floor of a bus can be jammed out with enormous baby buggies but woe betides you if you try and board with a folded up Brompton that's not in a bag.

 

[jopsuk]

normally recommended when you're getting on an intercity train with a bike to speak to the platform staff before the train arrives, to ask them where you need to be. Being pro-active doesn't hurt here.