Daily Mail: UK won't block death penalty for IS 'Beatles'

[Bromley boy]

I don't have the exact figure to hand, but each execution in the States costs around a million dollars when everything is figured in.

And beside that, "It's cheaper" would be a terrible justification for ending someone's life, does that apply to people with chronic ailments too?

Yes indeed.

In the states execution certainly costs more than keeping someone in prison for life, according to many sources.*

I also agree with you that cost shouldn’t be a factor in these decisions.

Personally I’m not in favour of the death penalty in the U.K., but I would be in favour of whole life sentences being given for murder (as opposed to a mandatory life sentence with a tariff).

*e.g.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyp...enalty-your-tax-dollars-at-work/#4af2bd22664b
It’s true that the actual execution costs taxpayers fairly little: while most states remain mum on the cost of lethal injections because of privacy concerns from pharmaceutical companies, it’s estimated that the drugs run about $100 (the Texas Department of Criminal Justice put the cost of their drug cocktails at $83 in 2011). However, the outside costs associated with the death penalty are disproportionately higher.

To begin with, capital cases (those where the death penalty is a potential punishment) are more expensive and take much more time to resolve than non-capital cases. According to a study by the Kansas Judicial Council (downloads as a pdf), defending a death penalty case costs about four times as much as defending a case where the death penalty is not considered. In terms of costs, a report of the Washington State Bar Association found that death penalty cases are estimated to generate roughly $470,000 in additional costs to the prosecution and defense versus a similar case without the death penalty; that doesn’t take into account the cost of court personnel. Even when a trial wasn’t necessary (because of a guilty plea), those cases where the death penalty was sought still cost about twice as much as those where death was not sought. Citing Richard C. Dieter of the non-partisan Death Penalty Information Center, Fox News has reported that studies have “uniformly and conservatively shown that a death-penalty trial costs $1 million more than one in which prosecutors seek life without parole.”

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't have the exact figure to hand, but each execution in the States costs around a million dollars when everything is figured in. And beside that, "It's cheaper" would be a terrible justification for ending someone's life, does that apply to people with chronic ailments too?

Is the thread matter concerning a punishment for offences committed, for if it is, what offences have these "people with chronic ailments" perpetrated that they too could face punishments?

 

[najaB]

Is the thread matter concerning a punishment for offences committed, for if it is, what offences have these "people with chronic ailments" perpetrated that they too could face punishments?

It's what is commonly called a 'slippery slope'. If, as suggested, we were to start executing people "Because it's cheaper than keeping them in prison." the precedent has been set that a life is worth a certain amount of 'savings'.

 

[Geezertronic]

Let's have a referendum on the death penalty. Why we keep some off theses people alive at huge cost bewilders me.

For people like this, the death penalty would only lead to some treating them like martyrs. Rotting in jail on a whole life term is much more appropriate

 

[farleigh]

It is a very hard moral dilemma.
Since the death penalty was abolished in the UK the murder rate has increased between 2 and 3 times. However, this does not necessarily prove that is the cause.
Would there be less murders if there was a death penalty? Almost certainly.
Would any innocent people be executed if there was a death penalty? Almost certainly.
It would be interesting to have a referendum to see what public opinion is but this will never happen.
Personally, I would support the death penalty for these two people.

 

[mikeg]

Except comparative studies between similar American states with and without the death penalty do, I believe, show the death penalty has almost no effect. Add to that the fact some innocents are executed and the death penalty results in the death of more innocent people, not fewer. In fact that'd be my main argument against it and not only that but unless it can be shewn to have a practical purpose I would declare it indefensible.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, I guess it comes down to what constitutes the lesser of two evils.

On the one hand, we assist an allied country and these defendants go through due process, and end up being subjected to a punishment we disagree with.

On the other hand, we refuse to assist a friendly country with their enquiries and two defendants do not get subjected to the full force of the law and guilty men end up going free.

I would say that the second scenario is not only worse for western civilisation and for the credibility of the legal system, but is also morally far more abhorant than assisting a country with an similar legal system and ending up with a punishment we might not agree with.

 

[Basher]

I feel the main problem with crime in this country is: punishment never fits the crime. The do-gooders have too much say. In the IOM nobody got the birch twice, as the perpetrators learned a lesson. Have you also notice that when a bad guy gets killed in a car chase etc, everyone says he was such a nice guy.

 

[NSEFAN]

I feel the main problem with crime in this country is: punishment never fits the crime. The do-gooders have too much say. In the IOM nobody got the birch twice, as the perpetrators learned a lesson. Have you also notice that when a bad guy gets killed in a car chase etc, everyone says he was such a nice guy.

Do they still birch people on the Isle of Man?

 

[Basher]

Do they still birch people on the Isle of Man?

No unfortunately. As a result crime has rose since abolishment .

 

[mikeg]

I think basher has made certain statements that should be backed up with fact and figures.

Also since when has doing other than good become meritorious? It is that attitude which is as symptomatic of the problems in society as much as any other.

 

[najaB]

No unfortunately. As a result crime has rose since abolishment .

Post hoc ero propter hoc?

 

[Bromley boy]

Also since when has doing other than good become meritorious? It is that attitude which is as symptomatic of the problems in society as much as any other.

I’ve no idea what this means. Is it a riddle? Can you elucidate?

Post hoc ero propter hoc?

In English, correlation doesn’t equal causation (or close to it).

A civilised society shouldn’t impose uncivilised punishments. Punishment isn’t only a matter of deterrence or prevention of recurrence. It’s also a method of reform.

 

[Bromley boy]

Would there be less murders if there was a death penalty? Almost certainly.

I believe this statement is incorrect. If I think back to my criminal law lectures (I’d rather not ) , we were taught that murder is often a crime of passion, therefore draconian punishments do little to prevent it. Eg. if you walk in on your wife sh*gging someone else, and shoot her to death, you will likely have done so in the heat of the moment, without considering the possible penalties.

I believe I’m right in saying this has been borne out by various studies and is the overwhelming view of many criminologists. For example:

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/study-...not-believe-death-penalty-effective-deterrent

There is overwhelming consensus among America’s top criminologists that the empirical research conducted on the deterrence question fails to support the threat or use of the death penalty.” A previous study in 1996 had come to similar conclusions.

 

[najaB]

I believe I’m right in saying this has been borne out by various studies and is the overwhelming view of many criminologists

You are correct.

 

[Bromley boy]

You are correct.

I’m always right, other than when I’m wrong .

 

[mikeg]

With regard to your not understanding Bromley boy: first of all, sorry, I'm not the best at putting things plainly.

What I meant was that when was to do other than good good in itself? Is doing bad a good thing?

 

[Bromley boy]

What I meant was that when was to do other than good good in itself? Is doing bad a good thing?

I must say this is an excruciating, tortuous use of language. I’ll try and play along.

If we take good and bad as determined opposing positions:

To do other than good can’t be a good thing in itself. Indeed, to do other than good must be a bad thing. It therefore surely follows that doing a bad thing can’t also be a good thing?

I’m still at a loss as to your point in relation to the thread title?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the states execution certainly costs more than keeping someone in prison for life, according to many sources.

America does pass some extremely long prison terms to be served, so based upon the average state cost per prisoner per year, can some of our resident statisticians say what would be the point where the said cost in number of years served would pass the point of the cost of execution?

 

[Bromley boy]

America does pass some extremely long prison terms to be served, so based upon the average state cost per prisoner per year, can some of our resident statisticians say what would be the point where the said cost in number of years served would pass the point of the cost of execution?

I wonder if they could.

Despite my objections to the death penalty, I hope “the Beatles” receive it (preferably painfully). Whatever death they receive will be far more dignified and less onerous than they meted out to their victims. It would be better all round if they’d been “shot while attempting to escape”.

If the US government gave me a baseball bat, and thirty seconds in a room with each of “the Beatles”, justice would be admistered very swiftly and cheaply indeed.

 

[Basher]

I think basher has made certain statements that should be backed up with fact and figures.

Also since when has doing other than good become meritorious? It is that attitude which is as symptomatic of the problems in society as much as any other.

All the figures are available on the internet for all to see.
Criminals just laugh at the law, no wonder our police are becoming demoralised, then we have judges who have never had to live alongside the scum-bags, they believe the criminal had a bad start in life. I do believe that there is something like 20 charities supporting criminals and just 2 supporting victims.

 

[najaB]

All the figures are available on the internet for all to see.

Good. That'll make it easy for you to provide the figures to support your assertion.