dailymail - One in five train services could be axed as treasury tightens purse strings

[the sniper]

Because like it or not, they will recognise you are vastly over paid and will do something about it.. Now that's my opinion, like it or not.

Bad dog, get down!

 

[34006]

If one in five trains are axed, does that mean one in five traincrew are made redundant ??

 

[dk1]

If one in five trains are axed, does that mean one in five traincrew are made redundant ??

Of course not.

 

[the sniper]

If one in five trains are axed, does that mean one in five traincrew are made redundant ??

If they could manage to cover the remaining 80% of trains with existing complements without considerable overtime, I'd be surprised.

 

[Watershed]

If one in five trains are axed, does that mean one in five traincrew are made redundant ??

Not exactly. Virtually all operators rely on overtime to deliver the full timetable on a normal day. Eliminating OT in its various forms would give a considerable wage bill saving without ever needing to cut a single job.

Then there is also the issue that not all service cuts will impact equally on the number of train crew required. It'd almost be best to start off looking at the most inefficient/shortest crew and unit diagrams. These are often found in the peaks and around the overlap between the early and late turns. Cutting the services covered by these diagrams could allow a significant saving.

OTOH, those cuts that involve getting rid of highly efficient diagrams that are right up against the limits are not going to be as helpful.

 

[The Ham]

I'd rather have a civilised discussion with the booking officer over what I need, rather than jabbing away endlessly at the screen, only to find that for some reason it's decided that it doesn't fancy my bank card that day, thus having to walk over to the machine on the other platform and repeat the process all over again.

That's just poor TVM design, personally I'd very much prefer if I could touch my smart ticket against the machine and it recall my last 10 ticket sales straight there (with more available with the touch of a button). That would make ticket offices redundant for the vast majority of travellers, as the transaction could be done with 2 or 3 button presses and the touch of the smart ticket and a contactless payment card.

Of course better still would be the ability to buy tickets on my phone with realtime activation as I touch in at the start of my trip.

 

[Philip]

That's just poor TVM design, personally I'd very much prefer if I could touch my smart ticket against the machine and it recall my last 10 ticket sales straight there (with more available with the touch of a button). That would make ticket offices redundant for the vast majority of travellers, as the transaction could be done with 2 or 3 button presses and the touch of the smart ticket and a contactless payment card.

Of course better still would be the ability to buy tickets on my phone with realtime activation as I touch in at the start of my trip.

Therein lies the reason for the concern about how long ticket offices will remain open for.

The comment on the previous page about how some clerks won't cope if moved outside is interesting, are there really some who won't be able to adapt? I can't speak for everywhere but where I work, it isn't exactly cushy all of the time...we tend to get the brunt of irate passengers in times of disruption; someone who wouldn't cope outside probably wouldn't cope inside either in the above scenario.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course better still would be the ability to buy tickets on my phone with realtime activation as I touch in at the start of my trip.

I tend to use a TVM rather than my phone because the former doesn't presently force me to use a cack-handed journey planner when I know what I want, whereas the latter does. If that changes, as it looks to be doing over time, the phone may become more in favour.

 

[peters]

And that makes any difference to traincrew because?

My best pay rise was under the goverment

I take it you're aware the government has said any public sector worker not on a low wage (i.e. earning more than £24,000 a year) cannot be given a pay rise as there's no money to do so and those earning below that can only get £250. Therefore, in the case of someone on £22,500 they get a 1% pay rise, someone on £24,500 gets a 0% pay rise. If the government funds pay increases for railway workers earning over £24,000 while police officers and teachers don't get one then it's not going to go down well with 99.9% of the population.

I'd rather have a civilised discussion with the booking officer over what I need, rather than jabbing away endlessly at the screen, only to find that for some reason it's decided that it doesn't fancy my bank card that day, thus having to walk over to the machine on the other platform and repeat the process all over again.

I like having both options. The TVM doesn't moan if you want to buy a split ticket but the TVM can only do what it's been programmed to do, it can't grow a pair of arms and legs to go and assist a disabled passenger.

I tend to use a TVM rather than my phone because the former doesn't presently force me to use a cack-handed journey planner when I know what I want, whereas the latter does. If that changes, as it looks to be doing over time, the phone may become more in favour.

A Northern one does!

If one in five trains are axed, does that mean one in five traincrew are made redundant ??

Don't forget the number of staff on a train isn't a fixed number, some services have one member of staff on board, others have quite a few.

From a business prospective if you have spare guards one thing to consider is whether the most cost effective solution is to make guards redundant or whether it's to redeploy guards as ticket sellers complimenting the guard. It's also a legal requirement for employers to try to offer alternative suitable employment to anyone whose role is made redundant.

 

[Andrew1395]

In terms of how to save costs, I would have thought the Treasury will want to ensure all operational costs are looked at. Quick wins that require investment but result in labour savings. For example following the TfL route on no booking offices, no cash sales are bound to be looked at and applied where they can. Reducing costs of retailing will be the real motivation in any new initiatives on smart tickets and fares simplification.

Reducing the number of trains run from the December 2019 timetable (what was it 70,000 a week?), by 14,000 could save a lot of money. End services earlier, fewer variations between peak and off peak (to help spread the commuting load). Fewer services outside of the normal business week.

over the last twenty five years weekend frequencies and services have increased significantly. I can see weekday services protected at the expense of weekends. Especially in the short term where the yield is lower per train and there maybe fewer discreactionary reasons to travel into city centres. High Street retail and hospitality is going to be heavily hit after more than 12 months operating in on/off lockdowns. Plus of course people have reorientated their lives to more online and local spending options.

fewer weekend trains will reduce maintenance costs and fuel costs.

Train leasing contracts could be renegotiated.

Land sold, non core support jobs removed. All quick wins (if long term poor vfm).

How many train services and jobs did BR shed between 1994 and 1996. It was a fair few, only to see the private operators reintroduce many and go on a recruitment drive. An example of reducing services would be the Euston Watford DC. Reduced to half hourly off peak and on weekends by North London Railways. Only to be reversed by the same management team and hailed as a great example of the private sector providing better services than the state provider.

Revenue could be increased by removing VAT exemption on say advance products, keeping walk up products at the zero rate.

With the DfT already imposing pay freezes across the business, the move to management contracts will allow more direction on labour costs as well as train specification.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like having both options. The TVM doesn't moan if you want to buy a split ticket but the TVM can only do what it's been programmed to do, it can't grow a pair of arms and legs to go and assist a disabled passenger.

It can't, but that's better not done by ticket office staff anyway, as it creates conflicts - ticket sales vs. providing assistance - at precisely the time both are required (just before the train arrives). Better to have a TVM and a member of platform staff.

 

[dk1]

I take it you're aware the government has said any public sector worker not on a low wage (i.e. earning more than £24,000 a year) cannot be given a pay rise as there's no money to do so and those earning below that can only get £250. Therefore, in the case of someone on £22,500 they get a 1% pay rise, someone on £24,500 gets a 0% pay rise. If the government funds pay increases for railway workers earning over £24,000 while police officers and teachers don't get one then it's not going to go down well with 99.9% of the population.

Negotiations on the 2020 (& probably 2021) pay deal are resuming in January between unions/management & have been complicated due to the current DfT involvement.

 

[peters]

fewer weekend trains will reduce maintenance costs and fuel costs.

The old Northern franchise tried to run all weekend services using single train sets. It went very badly as every time there was a sporting event on, which happened most weekends, it meant some trains were so full they left people behind. From my experience there's usually more passengers in total on a Saturday than a weekday because other than the very early Saturday trains, Saturday trains are usually busy all day while there's quieter times on weekdays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The old Northern franchise tried to run all weekend services using single train sets. It went very badly as every time there was a sporting event on, which happened most weekends, it meant some trains were so full they left people behind. From my experience there's usually more passengers in total on a Saturday than a weekday because other than the very early Saturday trains, Saturday trains are usually busy all day while there's quieter times on weekdays.

LM seemed to mostly do the same. It was similarly a disaster. One of the few major improvements from Abellio was to pretty much end 4-car operation south of Northampton (other than about 1 diagram on each of Saturday and Sunday, and on weekdays where there aren't enough units to avoid it), which made a considerable difference.

 

[CBlue]

Vastly prefer the TVM myself. I can get a ticket very quickly, and it won't argue.

Agreed. At least the machine tends to give you the ticket you actually want to buy, rather than get stroppy when ignoring your request for the "super" off peak return ticket and trying to issue you a higher priced one.

 

[peters]

Negotiations on the 2020 (& probably 2021) pay deal are resuming in January between unions/management & have been complicated due to the current DfT involvement.

Not surprising. The operators have taken a lot less revenue than expected, so don't have money for pay rises while the government aren't going to fund pay rises for train drivers when other key workers got nothing.

Changes to an existing sick pay scheme to allow for self-isolation wouldn't be controversial, the government funding a pay rise would be very controversial.

 

[philthetube]

Think network rail (railtrack???) would have to cut its cloth according to its income.

Most of their expenditure is fixed, they cant close 20% of signal boxes or walk the track 20% less often, or maintain level crossings 20%less, minor savings to be made on maintenance because of less trains, but won't match the 20% reduction in track access charges.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most of their expenditure is fixed, they cant close 20% of signal boxes or walk the track 20% less often, or maintain level crossings 20%less, minor savings to be made on maintenance because of less trains, but won't match the 20% reduction in track access charges.

Well, they could, by closing routes. I don't support that, though - anything done now needs to be easily reversible simply by building new rolling stock[1] and recruiting new staff, because it will need to be reversed at some point.

[1] Scrapping 15x to have to buy new later is not a bad thing, they are old and polluting and it's time for them to go, at least for x<=6.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, I suppose you could switch out some boxes on mechanically signalled routes. That might lead to some very long sections though !

 

[dk1]

Not surprising. The operators have taken a lot less revenue than expected, so don't have money for pay rises while the government aren't going to fund pay rises for train drivers when other key workers got nothing.

Changes to an existing sick pay scheme to allow for self-isolation wouldn't be controversial, the government funding a pay rise would be very controversial.

I'm not expecting anything & so not particularly fussed one way or the other but reps are saying it affects pensions (I'm no expert on that) so needs a conclusion. The fact that we are effectively directly employed by a private company may well make us different to other public sector workers on that technicality. From what filters back from previous meetings it is the DfT restriction as our TOC wishes to negotiate.

 

[paul1609]

To be fair, 10% of last years revenue is not untypical at present.

Indeed I think that some of Southeasterns country stations haven't achieved 10% since last March. Car Parking income must be drastically down, I'm regularly driving past 300 space car parks that have a dozen of so cars parked in them, many of them with staff passes in the window.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In terms of how to save costs, I would have thought the Treasury will want to ensure all operational costs are looked at. Quick wins that require investment but result in labour savings. For example following the TfL route on no booking offices, no cash sales are bound to be looked at and applied where they can. Reducing costs of retailing will be the real motivation in any new initiatives on smart tickets and fares simplification.

Reducing the number of trains run from the December 2019 timetable (what was it 70,000 a week?), by 14,000 could save a lot of money. End services earlier, fewer variations between peak and off peak (to help spread the commuting load). Fewer services outside of the normal business week.

over the last twenty five years weekend frequencies and services have increased significantly. I can see weekday services protected at the expense of weekends. Especially in the short term where the yield is lower per train and there maybe fewer discreactionary reasons to travel into city centres. High Street retail and hospitality is going to be heavily hit after more than 12 months operating in on/off lockdowns. Plus of course people have reorientated their lives to more online and local spending options.

fewer weekend trains will reduce maintenance costs and fuel costs.

Train leasing contracts could be renegotiated.

Land sold, non core support jobs removed. All quick wins (if long term poor vfm).

How many train services and jobs did BR shed between 1994 and 1996. It was a fair few, only to see the private operators reintroduce many and go on a recruitment drive. An example of reducing services would be the Euston Watford DC. Reduced to half hourly off peak and on weekends by North London Railways. Only to be reversed by the same management team and hailed as a great example of the private sector providing better services than the state provider.

Revenue could be increased by removing VAT exemption on say advance products, keeping walk up products at the zero rate.

With the DfT already imposing pay freezes across the business, the move to management contracts will allow more direction on labour costs as well as train specification.

Given that the railway farebox will be relying much more heavily on the leisure market for some time, cutting weekend services in the manner you describe here would be a foolish idea. At a TOC that I am quite familiar with, the talk is about strengthening Friday and Saturday timetables and a heavy marketing push to promote them.

 

[yorksrob]

At a TOC that I am quite familiar with, the talk is about strengthening Friday and Saturday timetables and a heavy marketing push to promote them.

Whoever they are, they seem to have their heads screwed on !

 

[Ianno87]

Well, I suppose you could switch out some boxes on mechanically signalled routes. That might lead to some very long sections though !

But there's probably relatively few routes so signalled to do that any more - a bit of a saving, yes, but relative chickenfeed.

Indeed I think that some of Southeasterns country stations haven't achieved 10% since last March. Car Parking income must be drastically down, I'm regularly driving past 300 space car parks that have a dozen of so cars parked in them, many of them with staff passes in the window.

Yes, lack of car park revenue must be hurting right now in particular.

 

[Llandudno]

Given that the railway farebox will be relying much more heavily on the leisure market for some time, cutting weekend services in the manner you describe here would be a foolish idea. At a TOC that I am quite familiar with, the talk is about strengthening Friday and Saturday timetables and a heavy marketing push to promote them.

There will be a huge pent up demand for evening and weekend leisure travel when it is safe to do so.

Many people can’t wait to attend sporting and cultural events again. You only have to look at theatre and arena listings and many of the 2020 events have been rescheduled until 2021/22 and this on top of some of the shows originally lined up for 2021. Many of the UKs top venues are not fully utilised but are looking likely to host more events in the future.

There is also likely to be a further Staycation holiday boost in 2021/22, although not many people go on long holidays by train any more, city breaks will be increasingly popular as hoteliers lower their prices in the short term owing to a lack of overseas visitors.

I am a glass is half full kind of person and am convinced that the leisure traveller will return very quickly to the rail network provided off peak services are not slashed, it is vital that late evening and weekend trains are retained for the public to support our hospitality sector.

I agree that some slimming down of augmented peak hour services is likely and I would like to see a reduction in first class provision

It’s not all doom and gloom, we will be back!

 

[RT4038]

It's also a legal requirement for employers to try to offer alternative suitable employment to anyone whose role is made redundant.

Yes, to redeploy them into vacancies elsewhere. There is no requirement to make up other jobs. Saving employment costs will be the aim.

 

[Ken H]

Given that the railway farebox will be relying much more heavily on the leisure market for some time, cutting weekend services in the manner you describe here would be a foolish idea. At a TOC that I am quite familiar with, the talk is about strengthening Friday and Saturday timetables and a heavy marketing push to promote them.

have to get rid of the mask thing first. people wont sit on a train for an extended period having to mask up.

 

[peters]

have to get rid of the mask thing first. people wont sit on a train for an extended period having to mask up.

Well lots of people took 4 hour flights to Greece this year, despite having to wear a mask not only on the flight but also at the airport and on buses/trains/taxis to and from the airport at both ends and additionally while checking in at any hotel.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not expecting anything & so not particularly fussed one way or the other but reps are saying it affects pensions (I'm no expert on that) so needs a conclusion. The fact that we are effectively directly employed by a private company may well make us different to other public sector workers on that technicality. From what filters back from previous meetings it is the DfT restriction as our TOC wishes to negotiate.

That's because under the E(R)MAs the government is ultimately paying for any cost increase at the TOCs, not the private TOC owner.
Ultimately, if the DM article has any legs, the Treasury wants a short/medium term cost reduction (not specifically service/staff cuts).
But the railway doesn't do short term easily.
Network Rail budgets are also nominally protected by its 5-year ORR settlement (CP6 = 2019-24).

 

[peters]

Yes, to redeploy them into vacancies elsewhere. There is no requirement to make up other jobs. Saving employment costs will be the aim.

They do have to consider counter proposals that a union rep submits and if the counter proposal offers better value for money than the original proposal, then they can't just ignore it. The key would be whether redeployed people doing revenue duties could bring in more money than it would cost to retain them.