Daughter received letter threatening summons

[Skmanuk]

Hi all

I would like a little advice please. My daughter bought a ticket online on the 13th Sept for travel from Oakham to Radlett on the 16th Sept. She received a confirmation email.

When arriving at Oakham the booking office was closed and there is no ticket machine so she was unable to collect her pre paid ticket.

She boarded the train and was asked for a ticket on the first leg to Leicester, she explained the above and showed the guard the confirmation email from train line.com. He took her name and address then left.

She has now received a letter from Transport Investigations Ltd saying that there is sufficient evidence to warrant a prosecution and that she has 21 days to submit any mitigation before they issue a summons.

 

[najaB]

When arriving at Oakham the office was closed and the ticket machine out of order so she was unable to collect her pre paid ticket.

If the ticket machine was truly out of order then there is no grounds for a prosecution. I would write to TIL stating the same and requesting that they close the matter without prejudice.

 

[Skmanuk]

If the ticket machine was truly out of order then there is no grounds for a prosecution. I would write to TIL stating the same and requesting that they close the matter without prejudice.

Thanks for the reply, having questioned her further and checking online there is no self service machine at Oakham. So it was just the case that the booking office was closed.

 

[Wanderwaal]

Thanks for the reply, having questioned her further and checking online there is no self service machine at Oakham. So it was just the case that the booking office was closed.

According to NRE, there's self-service machine without collection option:

 

[[.n]]

that implies no ticket collection however - usually when buying online it forces you to choose a station to collect from

 

[Skmanuk]

According to NRE, there's self-service machine without collection option:
View attachment 39789

Hi

I have checked with national rail.co.uk just now it says there is no self service machines either for purchase or collection.

 

[Skmanuk]

that implies no ticket collection however - usually when buying online it forces you to choose a station to collect from

Hi

That seems to have changed, they now say that you can collect from any station with a machine and there is a link on the email which will take you to a list of ststaions that have a machine.

 

[Skmanuk]

Included with the letter were some extracts from the railway byelaws, I have attached the one relating to byelaw 18 which seems to say you can get on the train without a valid ticket if there were no facilities to issue or validate a ticket at the station and time of departure??

 

[Wanderwaal]

I have

Hi

I have checked with national rail.co.uk just now it says there is no self service machines either for purchase or collection.

I took screenshot from National Rail app, which supposedly should receive information from the same source.

You mentioned that journey was on 16th of September (which was Saturday), and it means that booking office was open until 14:10. If the journey happened indeed after that time and station doesn't have a ticket machine as it seems, I think there's enough evidence and good ground for complaint against prosecutions decision.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Two points for consideration:

1) Your daughter should have collected her tickets before boarding from another station with a machine.

2) As there was no way of purchasing a ticket before boarding, your daughter should have been sold a ticket onboard the train by the guard.

Did the guard offer to sell a ticket, or did they just take your daughter's details?

 

[Skmanuk]

Two points for consideration:

1) Your daughter should have collected her tickets before boarding from another station with a machine.

2) As there was no way of purchasing a ticket before boarding, your daughter should have been sold a ticket onboard the train by the guard.

Did the guard offer to sell a ticket, or did they just take your daughter's details?

Thanks for the reply.

She had of course already bought a ticket online and had the confirmation email to prove it. I understand that they can check if tickets have been collected or not.
Am I right therefore in suggesting that what should have happened is as follows,

1/ She should have been offered a chance to buy a ticket by the guard albeit at a higher price
2/ She should have bought this ticket.
3/ She then should have claimed back from the online seller the cost of the unused ticket as it can be proven it was never collected
4/ I presume then she could also claim back (from someone) the difference in cost between the originally purchased online ticket and the one sold on-board????

 

[najaB]

1) Your daughter should have collected her tickets before boarding from another station with a machine.

That is true, however I tried a test purchase on a Trainline-powered booking engine and it offered collection from Oakham station. If the OP's daughter was also told that she could collect at the station then I think it would be hard for the TOC to argue that she was in the wrong.

1/ She should have been offered a chance to buy a ticket by the guard albeit at a higher price
2/ She should have bought this ticket.
3/ She then should have claimed back from the online seller the cost of the unused ticket as it can be proven it was never collected
4/ I presume then she could also claim back (from someone) the difference in cost between the originally purchased online ticket and the one sold on-board????

Technically, yes that would be the appropriate procedure - the 'someone' would be TheTrainline.

 

[MG11]

Hi all

I would like a little advice please. My daughter bought a ticket online on the 13th Sept for travel from Oakham to Radlett on the 16th Sept. She received a confirmation email.

When arriving at Oakham the booking office was closed and there is no ticket machine so she was unable to collect her pre paid ticket.

She boarded the train and was asked for a ticket on the first leg to Leicester, she explained the above and showed the guard the confirmation email from train line.com. He took her name and address then left.

She has now received a letter from Transport Investigations Ltd saying that there is sufficient evidence to warrant a prosecution and that she has 21 days to submit any mitigation before they issue a summons.

Was your daughter offered the option of having her ticket delivered to her home address? Did your daughter approach a member of train crew at the earliest opportunity to explain the situation?

 

[ainsworth74]

That is true, however I tried a test purchase on a Trainline-powered booking engine and it offered collection from Oakham station. If the OP's daughter was also told that she could collect at the station then I think it would be hard for the TOC to argue that she was in the wrong.

National Rail Enquires also states that Oakham supports ticket collection (though it does clarify that as being from the ticket office). I think the key thing here is did she travel at a time when the ticket office should have been open. If she did then I'd agree it would be hard for the TOC to argue she was wrong given that the Trainline suggested she could collect from Oakham as does NRE.

 

[Skmanuk]

Was your daughter offered the option of having her ticket delivered to her home address? Did your daughter approach a member of train crew at the earliest opportunity to explain the situation?

Not sure I understand the relevance of the home address bit.

The first leg of her journey was from Oakham to Leicester , a leg of 25 minutes, before changing for Kettering. She collected her ticket at Leicester, the first opportunity to do so.

 

[najaB]

National Rail Enquires also states that Oakham supports ticket collection (though it does clarify that as being from the ticket office).

TheTrainline does't make that distinction in the booking process (it might in the confirmation email) and I deliberately chose a time outwith the booking office hours.

 

[Skmanuk]

National Rail Enquires also states that Oakham supports ticket collection (though it does clarify that as being from the ticket office). I think the key thing here is did she travel at a time when the ticket office should have been open. If she did then I'd agree it would be hard for the TOC to argue she was wrong given that the Trainline suggested she could collect from Oakham as does NRE.

She travelled at 19.19 so well after the ticket office closed. If I understand you, then your are suggesting that she should have known this and therefore the office being closed is not a material factor.

This seems very strange as it places someone who has not purchased a ticket online in advance but just turns up for the same train is treated more favourably if they board the same train without a ticket.

 

[Skmanuk]

TheTrainline does't make that distinction in the booking process (it might in the confirmation email) and I deliberately chose a time outwith the booking office hours.

The email makes no distinction. It makes no mention of the ability to collect from ticket offices

 

[najaB]

She travelled at 19.19 so well after the ticket office closed. If I understand you, then your are suggesting that she should have known this and therefore the office being closed is not a material factor.

If she had travelled at a time when the booking office should have been open and then found it closed then she would be 100% in the right with no wiggle room whatsoever for the TOC. Since she travelled after booking office closed, the TOC might attempt to argue that she should have known and collected her tickets earlier in the day. It's not a valid argument but I wouldn't be surprised if they attempted to blame her.

This seems very strange as it places someone who has not purchased a ticket online in advance but just turns up for the same train is treated more favourably if they board the same train without a ticket.

That is why that line of argument is invalid (it wouldn't stop some TOCs from trying it though).

 

[MG11]

Not sure I understand the relevance of the home address bit.

The first leg of her journey was from Oakham to Leicester , a leg of 25 minutes, before changing for Kettering. She collected her ticket at Leicester, the first opportunity to do so.

East Midlands Trains offer automatically to post tickets when the origin station does not have collection facilities. I don't know what the Trainline policy is but it would be strange to select 'Collect At Station' when the station does not have collection facilities.

 

[221129]

Oakham does NOT have a ticket machine, so if she travelled outside of the Ticket Office opening hours then the TOC has an easy case as far as I can see.

 

[221129]

If she had travelled at a time when the booking office should have been open and then found it closed then she would be 100% in the right with no wiggle room whatsoever for the TOC. Since she travelled after booking office closed, the TOC might attempt to argue that she should have known and collected her tickets earlier in the day. It's not a valid argument but I wouldn't be surprised if they attempted to blame her.

It is a completely valid argument. Especially when booking via the trainline (and XC direct you get this warning.)

 

[najaB]

It is a completely valid argument. Especially when booking via the trainline (and XC direct you get this warning.)

Hmm... that's interesting as I didn't get that warning when I tried a test booking earlier. It doesn't matter though, since there were no facilities for the purchase of a ticket then the TOC cannot prosecute unless the OP's daughter was offered and refused the opportunity to purchase on board.

 

[Skmanuk]

East Midlands Trains offer automatically to post tickets when the origin station does not have collection facilities. I don't know what the Trainline policy is but it would be strange to select 'Collect At Station' when the station does not have collection facilities.

Oakham does have collection facilities, from the booking office

 

[221129]

Was the daughter offered a chance to pay on the train?

 

[MG11]

Oakham does have collection facilities, from the booking office

So, as 221129 said, if the booking office was closed and advertised as such, there is a clear case of deliberately boarding a train without possessing a valid ticket.

OP was your daughter interviewed under caution?

 

[221129]

So, as 221129 said, if the booking office was closed and advertised as such, there is a clear case of deliberately boarding a train without possessing a valid ticket.

OP was your daughter interviewed under caution?

No as there is no one at XC that is trained to do that.

 

[ainsworth74]

So, as 221129 said, if the booking office was closed and advertised as such, there is a clear case of deliberately boarding a train without possessing a valid ticket.

Not if the booking office was closed at the time the journey started as there was no way of purchasing a ticket. If the opportunity was offered on board and refused that would be a problem. If it wasn't offered and the TOC have gone straight to threatening prosecution I'm not sure their case could stand up.

 

[najaB]

So, as 221129 said, if the booking office was closed and advertised as such, there is a clear case of deliberately boarding a train without possessing a valid ticket.

How, precisely, do you propose that a prospective passenger travelling from Oakham when the ticket office is closed avoids 'deliberately boarding a train without possessing a valid ticket'?

 

[221129]

Not if the booking office was closed at the time the journey started as there was no way of purchasing a ticket. If the opportunity was offered on board and refused that would be a problem. If it wasn't offered and the TOC have gone straight to threatening prosecution I'm not sure their case could stand up.

I agree. However I do not know of a single conductor that would go straight for a TIR without asking for the cost of the ticket first.