Dawlish sea wall collapse

[Baxenden Bank]

I think it's time NRES either stopped providing itinieries or updated them to reflect the bus arrangements. I have a journey next week and NRES is still thinking I'll be on the train.

Agreed, but usual standard for NRES.

Along with vague 'trains may be delayed, may be cancelled, journeys may be extended, buses may be provided'.

As an intending passenger I want facts - which trains cancelled (in this case obvious!), what times are the alternative buses, how frequent are they and how long will the revised journey take.

NRES was also saying 'a limited service between Plymouth and Penzance' whereas Frist Great Western were saying a normal timetable except for one early and one late train.

 

[Goatboy]

Still wrong timetables for next week on NRES. Very frustrating. The NRES journey planner now implies that FGW services are running but some XC services have been removed.

They have known since Wednesday that there wont be any trains through that area next week. Why are they still giving misleading timetable information out? They've obviously made some changes as the usual XC services are no longer offered, just FGW ones and the odd random XC.

 

[Llanigraham]

I see from a photo in this Press release they seem to be using old track to reinforce the concrete spraying:
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...and-landslip-block-routes-to-Exeter-1fd6.aspx

 

[Llanigraham]

 

[NeilWatson]

I see from a photo in this Press release they seem to be using old track to reinforce the concrete spraying:
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...and-landslip-block-routes-to-Exeter-1fd6.aspx

That seems to make sense rather than hauling the track away and hauling rebar in?

 

[Bushy]

A bit of history:

Accident to the South Devon Railway, at Dawlish

- The section of line beside the sea between Starcross and Dawlish has been a continual trial to the railway, because of the frequent damage caused by high seas. The intention to construct a direct line between Dawlish Warren and Newton Abbot was only part of a larger scheme to mitigate delays on one of the most intensively used stretches of line during the summer months; but one wonders whether the section through Teignmouth would still be used today had World War II not terminated the slow progress with the proposal. The first trouble experienced with the line, after opening in May 1846, was in December 1852 at Breeches Rock between Teignmouth and Dawlish. Héavy rain caused a spring to, break out from a soft vein, resulting in the collapse of the cliff onto the railway. After a similar occurrence in February 1853, the gradient of the cliff face was eased and drainage work carried out, but it was not enough toprevent a slightfall in October of the saine year. This illustra-tion shows the result of the first attack on the line from the other side. Easter~y gales during the first fortnight of February 1855 had washed away the beach near Teignmouth, exposing the marl on which the railway and sea wall were built. Heavy seas scoured the marl and despite remedial work 30yd of wall collapsed on the 16th. Severe frosts and turbulent seas prevented reconstruction, and by the time work could begin 50yd of the embankment had been washed away. Traffic was resumed by running trains to the edge of the breach and passengers walking round. A wooden viaduct built across the gap was completed in early March. Further strengthening was carried out during the summer under the personal supervision of Brunel. The picture shows the future site of Parsons Tunnel signalbox which controlled the convergence of the double linefrom Teignmouth into the single line through the tunnels to Dawlish. This was the last stretch of single line on the line between Paddington and Plymouth and was not doubled until 1 October 1905. The odd history of the signalbox is worth a mention; the box was switched out for almost half its life (from 1909-34 and 1946-7), finally closing in March 1964.

and posted on twitter https://twitter.com/LeoHickman/status/431559126838030336/photo/1
Regards

Bushy
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Dawlish collapse is reminiscent of the Dutton Breach on the Trent & Mersey Canal.
The breach affected a small part of the embankment of the canal, which was constructed on a valley slope. It was necessary to rebuild a substantial length of canal. The breach occurred on 24 September 2012. The canal re-opened on 2 May 2013 - 190 days later. Obviously not the same political pressure and not sure how the engineering compares. Access to the canal at Dutton was worse than the railway at Dawlish.

The breach was triggered by heavy rainfall but obviously the canal does not suffer the pounding from the sea.

The best picture of the original breach that I can find is here and pictures of the reconstruction at Diary of a breach.

Regards

Bushy

 

[SimonS]

Interesting one here..

(Source: Dailymail)

Are they the people doing the bird survey?

 

[Goatboy]

Still NO change in timetables for next week on NRES. This is getting ridiculous, how are people meant to plan for the next 6 weeks if the timetables are still not updated?

I appreciate that planning new timetables is a lot of work (Though equally as important as the hard work the network rail guys are doing) but a good start would be simply deleting the trains that quite obviously are not going to run.

According to NRES, there are numerous direct trains from Totnes to Paddington tommorrow. This is obviously impossible, everyone has known for 5 days now that these trains absolutely wont run so WHY are they still in the timetable?

XC have managed to delete most of the trains they are not running (Though some are still there, I guess the 15:24 Plymouth to Leeds is going to fly over the gap which is why they've left it in but taken all the others out) so why are the FGW ones still there? If they must remain why are they not marked as CANCELLED, as they quite obviously are cancelled?

 

[The Planner]

Got to admit, it seems odd, NR, XC and FGW will have been beavering away on the emergency timetable and I am surprised nothing has been uploaded or killed off in TRUST yet, not looked at Opentraintimes or anything to be fair though.

 

[shinkansen1966]

In 1939, the Great Western Railway started work on a new inland rail route avoiding the current Dawlish sea wall railway line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawlish_Avoiding_Line

In today's money it was costed at £165 million.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Interesting one here..

(Source: Dailymail)

The sea wall is a lot thinner just here. Down the steps in the foreground, up the ramp in middle-distance - result is that between them we have just a wall of garden wall thickness. Not surprised it collapsed. All the attention has been on this collapse, but have there been any other problems along this 'martitime' stretch?

 

[shinkansen1966]

The sea wall is a lot thinner just here. Down the steps in the foreground, up the ramp in middle-distance - result is that between them we have just a wall of garden wall thickness. Not surprised it collapsed. All the attention has been on this collapse, but have there been any other problems along this 'martitime' stretch?

In all the years I have been to Dawlish, I still do not understand why this section of sea wall path drops to near sea level.

 

[dysonsphere]

Its here somewhere the residents in the houses didnt want people looking in there windows lol. now they have the sea looking in.

 

[L&Y Robert]

It's here somewhere the residents in the houses didn't want people looking in their windows lol. Now they have the sea looking in.

Well, if we really wanted (do we?) we could walk along the road and look in. Or take the train and look in. Is there anything special in there worth looking at? Just houses with furniture, curtains, ornaments and so-on.

 

[dysonsphere]

Well, if we really wanted (do we?) we could walk along the road and look in. Or take the train and look in. Is there anything special in there worth looking at? Just houses with furniture, curtains, ornaments and so-on.

well as I dont make a habit of looking in windows I wouldn't know. Anymore of this chat and the mods will be on us

 

[455driver]

Its here somewhere the residents in the houses didnt want people looking in there windows lol. now they have the sea looking in.

As has already been posted on these Dawlish threads 3 times now, the reason is when the wall was being built there was one big house there, the owner didnt want people looking into his house so insisted on the lowering of the footpath, the house was subsequently demolished and the new houses built in their place.

 

[LateThanNever]

Well, if we really wanted (do we?) we could walk along the road and look in. Or take the train and look in. Is there anything special in there worth looking at? Just houses with furniture, curtains, ornaments and so-on.

As 455 driver has pointed out there was originally a large old house there before the railway - the owner declined a footpath to spoil his view. His descendants obviously then sold out to developers!

Whilst the upper wall is thinner at the point of collapse it has a very substantial footing but for some reason it has not been reinforced (perhaps because the footing was regarded as already substantial) whereas the thicker walls have received such reinforcement - at least where there is no beach to protect them. This thinner wall section seems to have had a shifting and mostly diminishing beach below it as well. But to be fair (from my fairly regular visits) all the beach sections are a very shifting scene particularly every winter! Must be very difficult to deal with...

 

[shinkansen1966]

Well, if we really wanted (do we?) we could walk along the road and look in. Or take the train and look in. Is there anything special in there worth looking at? Just houses with furniture, curtains, ornaments and so-on.

Are we saying that the only thing which stands between the current situation and proper sea wall defences is the views of a dozen or so residents in Dawlish ?

 

[455driver]

Are we saying that the only thing which stands between the current situation and proper sea wall defences is the views of a dozen or so residents in Dawlish ?

FFS read what has been written several times already-

WHEN THE SEAWALL WAS BUILT THERE WAS ONE VERY LARGE HOUSE THERE AND THE RESIDENT (SINGULAR) REFUSED TO HAVE THE FOOTPATH SO THAT WALKERS COULD SEE INTO HIS (SINGULAR) HOUSE, THE HOUSE HAS SINCE BEEN DEMOLISHED AND OTHER HOUSES (PLURAL) BUILT ON THE SITE.

Is that clear enough!

It is very unlikely that the current residents would complain if NR wanted to build the wall up to match the rest!

 

[dysonsphere]

Dont forget the enviromental study on the impact on seabirds when rebuilding the wall(Im not joking)

 

[IanXC]

It is very unlikely that the current residents would complain if NR wanted to build the wall up to match the rest!

Presumably consideration is being given to doing just that!

 

[455driver]

Presumably consideration is being given to doing just that!

Lets just say that one of those houses is yours, there is a big meeting with the residents and NR, and NR propose building the walkway up. Would you be brave enough to say "No I dont want it built up"?
I know I wouldnt be!

I am not saying it will be done now but I would hope that serious consideration is being given to doing it in the near future!

 

[Goatboy]

Lets just say that one of those houses is yours, there is a big meeting with the residents and NR, and NR propose building the walkway up. Would you be brave enough to say "No I dont want it built up"?
I know I wouldnt be!

I am not saying it will be done now but I would hope that serious consideration is being given to doing it in the near future!

I agree, especially given how noteworthy it is that the only breach was in the single-walled section which implies the double wall was fit for purpose..

 

[amcluesent]

The problem for Network Rail, like all public sector bodies, is it's close to financial year end so capital reserves will be minimal to spend on infrastructure.

They'll likely patch things up as best they can, then bid for capital to Treasury in FY14/15 and do a proper repair in the summer when weather conditions are favourable.

 

[Johnuk123]

Lets just say that one of those houses is yours, there is a big meeting with the residents and NR, and NR propose building the walkway up. Would you be brave enough to say "No I dont want it built up"?
I know I wouldnt be!

I am not saying it will be done now but I would hope that serious consideration is being given to doing it in the near future!

Don't think the residents will have any say in it, they don't own the view or the sea wall.

 

[Llanigraham]

Dont forget the enviromental study on the impact on seabirds when rebuilding the wall(Im not joking)

Which has also been proved elsewhere to be a fabrication!!

Reports seen elsewhere are that they have positioned several stone filled (scrap) freight containers in front of the hole to provide a breakwater effect, and that as soon as the tide allowed more concrete spraying was done.

 

[Chrisgr31]

FFS read what has been written several times already-

WHEN THE SEAWALL WAS BUILT THERE WAS ONE VERY LARGE HOUSE THERE AND THE RESIDENT (SINGULAR) REFUSED TO HAVE THE FOOTPATH SO THAT WALKERS COULD SEE INTO HIS (SINGULAR) HOUSE, THE HOUSE HAS SINCE BEEN DEMOLISHED AND OTHER HOUSES (PLURAL) BUILT ON THE SITE.

Is that clear enough!

It is very unlikely that the current residents would complain if NR wanted to build the wall up to match the rest!

If there was only one house is it also true there was no road (as it wouldn't have been required to access the other houses) therefore people wouldnt be walking along the road to look in the windows!

 

[455driver]

If there was only one house is it also true there was no road (as it wouldn't have been required to access the other houses) therefore people wouldnt be walking along the road to look in the windows!

There were no other houses! :roll:

It was people walking along the seawall that he didnt want looking in!

 

[mwmbwls]

I expect there are some qualifiers. I guess this is indeed probably the worst sea-related and maybe the worst weather-related disruption they have faced (and their predecessors) for a significant period of time - and I don't envy those faced with having to do the repairs. When they say "biggest job", I'm not so sure. Things like the Hatfield & Stainforth ground movement were on a pretty large scale, as an example.

Building a new main line route because of changed ground conditions is not unknown.

Prior to 1983,the East Coast Main Line ran via Selby. When the National Coal Board began to exploit the Selby Coalfield, a diversionary route for the ECML was necessary so that it would not be affected by subsidence. This diversion took the ECML away from Selby, leaving it a much quieter station.
The new route leaves the old at Temple Hirst to the south of Selby and rejoins it at Colton Junction several miles to the north of the town, where the York-Leeds line meets the ECML. The major difference with Dawlish is that the Selby diversion was financed by the NCB.The major advantages to the railway were the removal of the bottlenecks on the ECML ; the Selby Swing Bridge, over the River Ouse, and the relatively tight curve north of the station. It was the first purpose-built section of high-speed railway in the UK, having a design speed of 125 mph, and predating HS1 by twenty years.IIRC, Marshall Meadows at Berwick on Tweed is another example.

 

[DarloRich]

I see the ill informed (IE dont have a clue) wibblers are on one today!

So you actually think that if the Okehampton route was put back that-

1/ NR wouldnt have to pay their bit to keep the seawall up to scratch.
2/ journey times via Okehampton (or whatever route) would be comparable to the current Dawlish route.
3/ there is actually any money available to build a new route.
4/ building a tidal barrage (of whatever type) wont significantly affect the sands/currents on the whole estuary probably meaning the beaches at Dawlish and Teignmouth would disappear.
5/ there is the political will to actually do anything about the problems rather than just talk about them.
6/ in a couple of months when the seawall is rebuilt, trains are running and everything is back to normal any talk of opening new routes etc will be a distant memory.

Which is why I cannot fathom the amounts of money suggested for re-opening the line that are going about, how can anyone put a ball park figure on it when nothing is known about requirements or spec?

Very sensible posts.

The current line will be repaired and in due course better defenses put in place. That will be all. No new lines, unless the government comes up with more cash and pays for the route entirely. NR sure as hell dont have the money after the CP5 settlement has been worked out!

The current line, no doubt with degraded working, will be repaired and reopened ASAP.