Day Rangers

[Swirlz]

On Merseyrail if you want a £4.70 Saveaway (which says one day ranger) from Bache, you have to buy a single to your destination and sort it out there or you get a Penalty Fare.

If you are going into Liverpool, you have to buy a more expensive £6.20 single first.

 

[harz99]

I've never had a problem issuing two part rover tickets from my avantix.





It was always the case that "Rover" style tickets were not to be issued in advance as there was a valid until date but not a valid from date. Therefore, in theory the Rover was valid from the date of issue. I am not sure if that is still the case but it may be the reason for your alleged "bug" above.

Thanks for your response; I assume you don't work on train for Virgin, Tpex or Northern then? Because their staff don't seem to be able to issue two part rovers.

On the rovers I buy, FNW, FNE and FNC 4 in 8 varieties, the modern ticket machines print a start date on the first line of part one, "STD FONW 4IN8 DAY 21 - OCT - 12 £16.25X" being the one I finished today. If bought in advance thay carry the usual "A" with the start date to show that fact. In addition in very small print at the foot of the ticket is the following "Printed (time) on (date)" with the actual values in the bracketed areas.

So there is no reason relating to confusion over validities why advance purchase cannot be made.

In relation to me "alleging" something; no, there is defininitely something stopping the very experienced and totally clued up member of staff I deal with from issuing me a FNW in advance - every time we try, the machine defaults back to and prints the current date. I choose to call that having a "bug" simply because other TOCs ticket offices can and do make advance issues of these tickets.

One thing does confuse me however; you say "I've never had a problem issuing two part rover tickets from my Avantix", yet do not appear to know either what is printed on these tickets, nor whether their advance purchase is possible. Your statement though, implies you have issued several of this type of ticket.

The one thing doesn't sit well with the other.

 

[island]

On First Capital Connect,Merseyrail,Southern and Southeastern where penalty fare schemes are in operation then part exchange is highly advised quite simply because you could end up having an RPI on your back and staff are more likely to be trained to do exchanges than an operator like Northern (area) where a guard/ticket clerk would be unlikely to want to do it simply because they would be unsure of the accountancy issues they would face with the company if they are down when cashing up.

On Southeastern my wife has previously done a purchase in order to part-exchange, was complained at by the clerk at her changing point for doing this, and was going to be refused the exchange and sold a new ticket from her interchange point to her destination. The ensuing argument was short-circuited when it was observed that this split was in fact cheaper.

 

[Goatboy]

On Merseyrail if you want a £4.70 Saveaway (which says one day ranger) from Bache, you have to buy a single to your destination and sort it out there or you get a Penalty Fare.

If you are going into Liverpool, you have to buy a more expensive £6.20 single first.

Exactly what I ended up doing earlier this year - from this very station (Easier to park here than Chester).

As a passenger entirely new to Merseyrail it was a nightmare. I called the information point using the passenger info thingy and they had no idea which ticket I should buy. I asked the guard on the first train which stopped who refused to help me and said he couldn't sell me a ticket either.

In the end I gave up, bought a return to Liverpool from the machine and caught the next train having paid more than I should have.

 

[Parham Wood]

I think it is digusting that if a station does not sell the ticket you need you have to get a permit to travel or buy a ticket you do not want (that may cost more) and then have to change it at some station further on if the guard cannot sell the required ticket and refund any overspend. Why should I waste my time in this manner? Ticket machines should sell all tickets that are valid from that station. (Not sure how season tickets could be bought but with modern technology it should be possible).

It is about time that the railways learnt customer service. Would you go to shop which messed you around like this? From reading all the posts on this forum it makes one almost scared to travel by train as it seems so easy to end up with a criminal record. NB I do not condone fraud.

As an aside was it always the case that you could be penalised for travelling without a ticket? I thought that at one time the railway had to prove you intended not to pay. (I.e. you could pay the ticket collector or at the far end). I guess this may have changed with PF zones, unstaffed stations and to make it easier to prosecute fare dodgers.

 

[kieron]

On Merseyrail if you want a £4.70 Saveaway (which says one day ranger) from Bache, you have to buy a single to your destination and sort it out there or you get a Penalty Fare.

If you are going into Liverpool, you have to buy a more expensive £6.20 single first.

You could do, I suppose. Or you could stop short on a Chester train.

It does seem a bit odd far Merseyrail to have an off-peak Daysaver which cost less than some common anytime singles, but no off-peak tickets.

In the end I gave up, bought a return to Liverpool from the machine and caught the next train having paid more than I should have.

It sounds as though there is (or, at least, was) a problem with staff not knowing what to do about Daysavers. It may be worth contacting Merseyrail about it, as I'm sure the management want you to be able to buy the ticket you want.

 

[bb21]

As an aside was it always the case that you could be penalised for travelling without a ticket? I thought that at one time the railway had to prove you intended not to pay.

The Railway Byelaws do not require intent to be proven for a conviction to be secured.

 

[wintonian]

The NRCoC makes it clear that it is a requirement to buy a ticket for part of your journey if the exact ticket isn't available.

The NRCoC state:

Unless otherwise indicated,

you must purchase your ticket before boarding the train you intend to use.

and in A 2:

(ii) the notices and other publications issued by the Train Company in whose train you

are travelling indicate that you can buy tickets in that train.

I'm arguing the the penalty fares posters imply that it is not necessary to buy a ticket before boarding (and therefore also implying you can buy on board) if the ticket you require is unavailable and there is no PERTIS machine available or in working order.

 

[34D]

On Southeastern my wife has previously done a purchase in order to part-exchange, was complained at by the clerk at her changing point for doing this, and was going to be refused the exchange and sold a new ticket from her interchange point to her destination. The ensuing argument was short-circuited when it was observed that this split was in fact cheaper.

I've also been previously refused a part exchange like this, when I purchased a ticket from an FCC tvm that I attempted to exchange at Peterborough booking office and the staff there refused.

 

[island]

The NRCoC state:


and in A 2:



I'm arguing the the penalty fares posters imply that it is not necessary to buy a ticket before boarding (and therefore also implying you can buy on board) if the ticket you require is unavailable and there is no PERTIS machine available or in working order.

That is interesting!

 

[SickyNicky]

I've also been previously refused a part exchange like this, when I purchased a ticket from an FCC tvm that I attempted to exchange at Peterborough booking office and the staff there refused.

On what grounds? Were you able to quote the NRCoC to them, and did you subsequently put in a complaint?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Unfortunately I'm struggling to find one with a high enough resolution to read fully and I don't seem to have one myself.

The bits in the white boxes are....

Buying your ticket.

Please buy your ticket from the ticket office or self service ticket machine (where available).
If the ticket office is closed and you cannot buy the ticket you want from a self service ticket machine, you must buy a permit to travel (where there is a machine available) paying as much of your fare as possible. A permit to Travel is only valid for two hours and you must exchange it as soon as possible.

Examples of when a Penalty Fare may be charged.

If you:

• Travel without a valid ticket.
• Are unable to produce an appropriate Railcard for a discounted ticket.
• Travel in First Class accommodation with a standard ticket.
• Are aged 16 or over, travelling on a child rate ticket.
• Travel beyond the destination on your ticket.

 

[Be3G]

This is something I've often wondered about. I live in London and often make use of Boundary Zone tickets when popping out the city, but all of my local stations are in the penalty fare scheme and none of them have open ticket offices on Sunday. There are no permit to travel machines, or guards on trains. So if I want to buy an extension, what do I do? Does already having just the travelcard satisfy the ‘you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey’ condition? Consider the possibility that my journey might involve a change of train outside the zones, at a station that also doesn't have an open ticket office – in which case, I end up changing on to a train where the travelcard has no validity at all.

Being too scared of having hassle from railway staff, I sometimes end up having to go considerably out of my way to find an open ticket office just so I can feel ‘safe’.

 

[wintonian]

That is interesting!

The bits in the white boxes are....

The SWT PF poster actually do say you can seek advice from the help point or find someone onboard.

So I say again I do not believe that it is always necessary to buy some kind of ticket before boarding if the one you want is not available at the station.

I'll try and take a better picture if I am out with my camera and near a SWT station in the week.

 

[reb0118]

Thanks for your response; I assume you don't work on train for Virgin, Tpex or Northern then? Because their staff don't seem to be able to issue two part rovers.

No I don't. I am also aware that East Coast booking offices are now experiencing difficulties in issuing two part rovers - specifically Central Scotland Flexi Rovers.

On the rovers I buy, FNW, FNE and FNC 4 in 8 varieties, the modern ticket machines print a start date on the first line of part one, "STD FONW 4IN8 DAY 21 - OCT - 12 £16.25X" being the one I finished today. If bought in advance they carry the usual "A" with the start date to show that fact. In addition in very small print at the foot of the ticket is the following "Printed (time) on (date)" with the actual values in the bracketed areas.

These are the most common rovers that I use, myself, also. I maybe use this type about four or five times a year. I have two in front of me as I type. One issued from a colleague's avantix and one from a booking office. They have both been issued correctly as two part tickets. When I get my camera fixed I will upload both onto this post. The information shown on both tickets is broadly similar to what you have stated above. I do not purchase rover tickets in advance for personal use as these trips are mainly done on impulse and there is no financial benefit to advance purchase (in fact there is a disincentive with regard to the refund admin. fee for an unused ticket). I understand, however, that others in different circumstances may require advance purchase.

So there is no reason relating to confusion over validity why advance purchase cannot be made.

I have been issuing and checking tickets in the rail industry for well over 15 years and probably regularly using them personally for another 10 before that. In that time I have seen lots of changes re ticketing rules & regulations. I state again as a belief - not an absolute fact - (so I may be proved wrong) - that it was the case once that rovers did not have a "start date" but an "issue date" and, although it was not the intention, it could be argued that they were valid from then to the "valid until" date shown. This is just a theory but other rail employees, more senior to me, may still believe this to be true and set their operating systems accordingly. I am sure that rover tickets can be issued in advance at my local station and I will ask there on my way to work today. (I'll post back later tomorrow)

In relation to me "alleging" something; no, there is definitely something stopping the very experienced and totally clued up member of staff I deal with from issuing me a FNW in advance - every time we try, the machine defaults back to and prints the current date. I choose to call that having a "bug" simply because other TOCs ticket offices can and do make advance issues of these tickets.

Do not take too much issue with the word "allege". I write a lot of formal reports and lots of formal words creep into my everyday speech. I even ask my Mother to "State your message" and "Say again from.........." when she phones me from her mobile. I am not doubting the veracity of your experiences.

One thing does confuse me however; you say "I've never had a problem issuing two part rover tickets from my Avantix", yet do not appear to know either what is printed on these tickets, nor whether their advance purchase is possible. Your statement though, implies you have issued several of this type of ticket.

I have, infrequently, issued said tickets and I can assure you that I do know what is printed on them (and also their geographical limitations). I do not issue them in advance as in practise most passengers purchasing from me are already travelling and any tickets issued would require to be valid on the date of issue. In theory I could be asked for an advance issue and would not have an issue with that - we would have to wait and see if my TIS (Ticket Issuing System) concurred!

The one thing doesn't sit well with the other.

Again, I feel that you are probably reading too much into my previous post. I hope I have clarified things for you. Remember the rail system is now largely fragmented with regard to training, and as there are many confusing rules & regulations with regard to ticketing, if a person who holds a view that an obsolete rule is still in force gets into a position that can influence the data input into TIS at a particular TOC then this would create a discrepancy amongst TOCs when retailing & issuing a certain product.

Once again I am not doubting there is a problem with issuing rovers by certain TOCs, and by stating that my TOC, or I personally, can issue rovers correctly does not negate that. One point to note, however, is that if some TOCs can there is no reason that others TOCs can't - communication between TOCs is the key to sorting out this problem - and not just this one!

You should not take any offence at my previous post as there was none intended.