Death Penalty for Violent Crimes

[Journeyman]

Governments don't sentence people. Judge and jury does.

But governments make death penalties available, in certain jurisdictions, so it's a highly politically-charged issue. If you look at the politicians who support reintroducing the death penalty in this country, you'll see they're not exactly fans of liberal democracy, equality and fairness, and are the sorts of people who should never be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power.

The BNP are quite fond of it.

 

[Muttley]

One things for sure, they'll not let us have a referendum on it now.

 

[Journeyman]

One things for sure, they'll not let us have a referendum on it now.

There's no way a decision with such major implications should be left to an uninformed public. Oddly enough, our EU membership shouldn't have been decided that way either.

 

[Mag_seven]

There are three reasons why I am against the death penalty.

1. The risk of miscarriages of justice.
2. I'm not convinced it's a deterrent.
3. It brings the state down to the level of the criminal i.e. how can the state claim the moral high ground over killers if it is a killer itself?

 

[Muttley]

There's no way a decision with such major implications should be left to an uninformed public. Oddly enough, our EU membership shouldn't have been decided that way either.

...and, I'd wager, for the same reason.
They know the public would vote to bring it back.

 

[Journeyman]

There are three reasons why I am against the death penalty.

1. The risk of miscarriages of justice.
2. I'm not convinced it's a deterrent.
3. It brings the state down to the level of the criminal i.e. how can the state claim the moral high ground over killers if it is a killer itself?

Absolutely. Execution fails on every level - I think lengthy prison sentences are sufficient for any crime.

 

[Journeyman]

...and, I'd wager, for the same reason.
They know the public would vote to bring it back.

The countries in the world with the lowest rates of violent crime and the lowest reoffending rates are all ones without capital punishment.

 

[Muttley]

There are three reasons why I am against the death penalty.

1. The risk of miscarriages of justice.
2. I'm not convinced it's a deterrent.
3. It brings the state down to the level of the criminal i.e. how can the state claim the moral high ground over killers if it is a killer itself?

2) maybe not. But there is no repeat offending.
3) you gonna disband MI5, SIS, SAS, or even the Army then ?

 

[Muttley]

The countries in the world with the lowest rates of violent crime and the lowest reoffending rates are all ones without capital punishment.

That's a different point, though.
I'm not arguing for/against, I'm saying i would think the country would vote for it, if it were asked; and due to the EU mess there'll not be another referendum on our lifetime.

 

[Journeyman]

3) you gonna disband MI5, SIS, SAS, or even the Army then ?

That's an entirely different matter. It's also possible to be a neutral country with minimal armed forces, which is certainly what I'd like to see us become.

 

[trash80]

Well if you execute the wrong person then there is indeed the chance of repeat offending from the real murderer.

Lawful killing or justifiable homicide covers the likes of war

 

[Journeyman]

That's a different point, though.
I'm not arguing for/against, I'm saying i would think the country would vote for it, if it were asked; and due to the EU mess there'll not be another referendum on our lifetime.

Thank God for that. We just need to spend decades recovering from the last one.

 

[Journeyman]

Well if you execute the wrong person then there is indeed the chance of repeat offending from the real murderer.

...which is exactly what happened after Timothy Evans was wrongly convicted and executed for the murder of his wife.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There are three reasons why I am against the death penalty.

1. The risk of miscarriages of justice.
2. I'm not convinced it's a deterrent.
3. It brings the state down to the level of the criminal i.e. how can the state claim the moral high ground over killers if it is a killer itself?

Doesn't point 3 apply whatever the punishment? By the same logic, fining someone presumably brings the state down to the level of a thief, and imprisoning someone takes the state down to the level of a kidnapper.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Didn't Christie start his killing during WWII under cover of the blackout?

He did , and despite being a convicted criminal , he obtained employment as a War Reserve Police Officer ! , there were 2 wartime bodies in the garden , his wife under the floorboards and 3 other in the coal cupboard. (excluding the issue of Tim Evan's wife and daughter - found in the wash house)

Bit of a wrong 'un.

 

[ComUtoR]

Whist the Christie case is pertinent, is this more of a case where there is a distinct lack of proper investigation, lack of quality evidence gathering techniques and poor police procedure that contributed to the conviction of Timothy Evans and although he was wrongly executed, Christie was guilty. Where there is clear evidence and clear guilt then a miscarriage of justice is less likely to happen and convictions now days are more robust.

Should one hundred guilty go free than one innocent suffer ? A phrase often used and one that was stated recently by someone who was then very publicly castigated for saying it. I seem to remember something recently, although it was more controversial.

 

[DarloRich]

There is very little deterrence to the crime of murder. A serial murderer does not deserve the chance of redemption or reform and should be killed.

But how far do you go down the list/style of killings? At what point is a death not worth the death penalty? Is a judgement of that nature possible? Is the murderer of the policeman less of a killer than the murderer of a nonce?

I just think it is the start of the slide to mob rule and simply giving in to our base instincts.

 

[furnessvale]

The countries in the world with the lowest rates of violent crime and the lowest reoffending rates are all ones without capital punishment.

But what other non lethal punishments are applied in these countries.

For example in extremis, is a person dropping litter liable to be cracked round the back of the head by a police night stick?

I have a problem when life imprisonment is not actually life. That time in prison involves televisions and personal phones.

 

[Basher]

The government dare not have a referendum on this issue,

 

[Gostav]

There are usually two main reasons for the high incidence of vicious crimes in a country.
A. There a group of people very poor, they have nothing to lose.
B. Serious economic inequality, which push hatred from poor public.

 

[greyman42]

These were very different cases from random "terrorist" killings for which I believe the death penalty should be used. The trouble back then was that there was little or no room for discretion.

Would that of included the people convicted of the Birmingham and Guildford pub bombings?

 

[Basher]

This is no excuse, when I was a lad a lot of people were very poor with no help from the state. We did not go around causing trouble to other people.
Can anyone tell me what is the definition of the poor today?

 

[DarloRich]

This is no excuse, when I was a lad a lot of people were very poor with no help from the state. We did not go around causing trouble to other people.
Can anyone tell me what is the definition of the poor today?

How old are you? 92?

 

[Esker-pades]

This is no excuse, when I was a lad a lot of people were very poor with no help from the state. We did not go around causing trouble to other people.
Can anyone tell me what is the definition of the poor today?

https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/

A summary is that UK relative poverty is earning less than 60% of the median national income.
The UN definition of absolute poverty is where one cannot afford one's basic needs.

 

[Basher]

So what is the 60% of? £100000, £10,

 

[Basher]

This is no excuse, when I was a lad a lot of people were very poor with no help from the state. We did not go around causing trouble to other people.
Can anyone tell me what is the definition of the poor today?

A gentleman never reveals their age. All I can say is, clothing was rationed. We shared a WC in the yard with 6 other families, did not have a bathroom until I was 15, and no electrical services only gas lights and a fire to cook on. My friend and I yesterday were just talking about this very subject and he said he can remember going to the local shop for cardboard for his shoe soles.
PS it was railway housing we lived in.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For example, if I steal £1,000 from my employer to pay off a drug habit, I can expect the criminal justice system to:

1. Impose a sentence that sends a message that this behaviour is wrong and should not be tolerated in a civilised society.
2. Make me pay back what I stole, where appropriate, plus any other costs the affected party may have incurred.
3. Sentence me to (likely) community payback and refer me to the probation service.
4. Assess whether the public needs protecting from me. Likely not, if 1, 2 and 3 are satisfactorily met.

The finance manager at one of my former employers stole £20,000 from us (that we knew about!) and got 100 hours community service!

Governments don't sentence people. Judge and jury does.

The judge upholds the law but doesn't write it.

Where there is clear evidence and clear guilt then a miscarriage of justice is less likely to happen and convictions now days are more robust.

I wish I shared your faith in the criminal justice system.

Recent cases including the Stepping Hill Hospital murders and the tragic case of Gareth Jones- convicted of raping elderly care home patients despite no medical evidence the incidents happened- prove otherwise.

The massive cuts to police and CPS budgets make corner-cutting more likely, and the massive cuts to criminal defence legal aid makes robust examination of the evidence less likely.

 

[trash80]

There was still plenty of crime around back then

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is no excuse, when I was a lad a lot of people were very poor with no help from the state. We did not go around causing trouble to other people.

Plenty people did though. Pickpocketing, prostitution, drugs, robbery. Not modern phenomena.

People only left their doors unlocked if they had nowt worth nicking!

 

[HLE]

There was a very strong campaign over the murders at 10 Rillington Place , home of notorious killer J R Christie - an investigatory book by Ludovic Kennedy focused on the execution of Timothy Evans in 1950 - only for him to eventually receive a pardon in the mid 1960's. Very controversial. Christie carried out at least 4 murders after the Evans case. Well worth a read.

The BBC series on it a couple of years ago is well worth a watch too. The actor who played Christie was superb