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Death Penalty for Violent Crimes

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AlterEgo

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The moral difference is that society has decided which freedoms and liberties it is prepared to take away from a citizen following conviction of crime and which it is not. At present, and they are subject to change over time to reflect the prevailing mood of society and those we elect to represent us, we are not prepared to remove life from criminals.

But that isn't a moral difference, that's just explaining what the status quo is.

It doesn't seek to say why it may be right or wrong to remove someone's right to life, nor explain why society deems it acceptable to remove someone's liberty for their entire life with no hope of redemption or parole yet stop short of just killing them.
 
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Journeyman

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Life is not fair.

I'm sure that was a great source of comfort to the families of Timothy Evans and Derek Bentley.

It may not be fair, but using that as an excuse to perpetuate, and fail to correct, injustice is horrendous.
 

Journeyman

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I think the problem is that several people are using the risk of miscarriage of justice as if it's the end of the argument and a reason for dismissing the death penalty out of hand without any further consideration. It's not: It's a very legitimate and good argument against the death penalty, which then has to be balanced against all the other arguments both for and against the death penalty.

True. For me, the risk of miscarriage of justice is the biggest problem, and pretty much unresolvable, but there's a lot more to it - the death penalty has never been an effective deterrent, completely removes the possibility of reform or rehabilitation* and, in my opinion, goes far beyond the power a state should have over an individual's life. In America at least, execution is also ridiculously expensive and a lot of lawyers have grown very rich out of it, which is seriously unethical.

So, for me, it fails every practical test, and is therefore something I'd never support.

* Admittedly most capital crimes are serious enough for rehabilitation to be nigh-on impossible, but plenty of people in prison for life without parole have changed significantly for the better, and earned degrees, done useful work etc.
 

DarloRich

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But that isn't a moral difference, that's just explaining what the status quo is.

It doesn't seek to say why it may be right or wrong to remove someone's right to life, nor explain why society deems it acceptable to remove someone's liberty for their entire life with no hope of redemption or parole yet stop short of just killing them.

God my response was slightly pompous! I don't think this will be any better sadly!

There is a moral difference between the state killing or not killing prisoners. When the government dishes out fatal vengeance or retribution disguised as justice, it becomes complicit with the killers in devaluing human life and human dignity. We can not, in my view, say killing is wrong and then kill the killer! To kill (generally) goes against our nebulous and fluid moral code

In this country our moral code is encapsulated in our Constitution ( based on statute, common law/ laws established through court judgments, parliamentary conventions and works of authority ) in the customs and practices associated with the application of that Constitution, in public opinion and in the complex underlying moral code on which society is built. This sets the very wide ( and quite fluid) boundaries of what we consider acceptable. As this is not entirely codified it is, of course, open to interpretation and change. I suspect that with the rise of populist politicians it is likely these boundaries will change again but at present we as a society are not minded to accept judicial killing via the death penalty. We consider that wrong. We are prepared to accept imprisonment without chance of parole and consider that a fair response to a terrible crime. Why we do that is tied up in that complex web of Constitution, custom and practice that makes up the unwritten morale code on which our society is structured. That code, in itself, is based on the Judeo-Christian history of western society with all the contradiction that brings! Essentially, the bible told us killing was wrong therefore society generally considers killing wrong.

Personally I feel the death penalty constitutes an "cruel and unusual punishment" ( to steal from the yanks!) that is at odds with our wider "western" moral & ethical code. It potentially fosters a culture of violence, and teaches people that the way to settle scores is through violence, even to the point of taking a human life. It also seems we treat the death penalty in a unique way. Crimes other than murder do not receive a punishment that mimics the crime - for example rapists are not punished by sexual assault,people guilty of assault are not ceremonially beaten up. Arsonists do not have their homes burnt down. My view is that life imprisonment without possibility of parole causes much more suffering to the offender than a painless death after a short period of imprisonment.


BTW - I entirely see the other side of the argument: that the defendant ( generally) is a free moral actor able to control his own destiny for good or for ill, who chose his own path, that he is not an animal with no moral sense nor as someone who ( generally) does not know right from wrong, that some crimes are so awful as to completely breach our moral code and that they are often undertaken by people who are a constant menace to society and cannot abide by that moral code and so must be punished harshly. I can also see an argument that capital punishment restores the dignity of the humans whose lives were ended by the defendant's actions
 

cjp

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But would you be ok if say , one of you're children or grandchildren were executed , but were entirely innocent and wrongly convicted.
Far from young. I have had my Senior Railcard for some years.
I have no recollection of fearing death when I was young and when I was older with the British Standard wife and two children my fear was for them not myself.

Live each day as though it was your last and one day it will be.
 

cjp

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Still didn't answer it though did you. I would be ok with them having life imprisonment , I believe as obviously I could never know how I would feel until God forbid that situation ever happened. So a straight answer , would you be ok sitting watching a loved one strapped to a gurney and executed wrongly , in front of you.
If you knew they were truly innocent you should have testified for them with evidence. If you did then clearly yor peers on the jury did not believe your evidence.
Blind justice.
But I would not be their at the execution, I would want to keep the better memories.

Funerals are not for the dead but for the living.

But I still favour capital punishment over incarceration.
 

Bevan Price

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I think the trouble is that it's not all a one way street here: Clearly someone being executed for a crime they did not commit is absolutely terrible. But then so is being murdered or raped or seriously injured or having your life savings stolen by a criminal, and it seems plausible that the death penalty would prevent at least a few of those from happening.

Let's say that hypothetically, we re-introduce the death penalty. Each year lots of hardened criminals get executed, but amongst that number 2 innocent people get executed. But on the flip side, some of the executed criminals would - had they not been executed - between them have later on murdered 5 people AND raped 5 women, burgled 30 houses and caused life-changing injuries to 20 members of the public. Obviously I've just made those figures up but they don't seem totally implausible to me. So you've just wrongly executed 2 people, but on the flip side you've saved 5 other people from being murdered and a lot of people from having their lives devastated. Is it worth it? Obviously, that's a judgement call. But if in reality the figures are anything like the ones I've just made up (big if, I know), then overall you'd arguably have done a lot more good than harm by reintroducing the death penalty.

Would you still think the same if "the 2" were members of your family - parent, child, sibling, etc?
Would you be willing to put a rope round their necks, whilst knowing they might be innocent ?
 

DarloRich

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I have to agree with @DynamicSpirit - the mere fact there might be a miscarriage of justice is not, in itself, reason not to have the death penalty. I think there are more fundamental concepts at play.
 

AlterEgo

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Would you still think the same if "the 2" were members of your family - parent, child, sibling, etc?
Would you be willing to put a rope round their necks, whilst knowing they might be innocent ?

What point exactly is that supposed to illustrate?

Would you be comfortable going to their house and battering the door down and aggressively subduing them, kidnapping them and then throwing them into a locked room? How about if you kept them in a locked building for ever?
 

Tetchytyke

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I have to agree with @DynamicSpirit - the mere fact there might be a miscarriage of justice is not, in itself, reason not to have the death penalty. I think there are more fundamental concepts at play.

I understand the point, however I think it is important. The Guildford Four and Birmingham Six had their lives ruined by their miscarriages of justice, but at least they still had a life. Posthumous pardons aren't a great deal of use.

There are more fundamental issues there too. I don't think it acceptable to snuff someone's life out. I don't think their actions make it acceptable. But then I alwaus was a terrible pacifist.
 

Tetchytyke

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But if in reality the figures are anything like the ones I've just made up (big if, I know), then overall you'd arguably have done a lot more good than harm by reintroducing the death penalty.

Whataboutery of the absolute highest order.

Murder is extremely rare, the average is about 600 a year. Murderers being let out of prison and then murdering again is even rarer. It does happen- it happened in Sunderland last year- but it is extremely extremely rare. I can't think of another example of it happening.

The death penalty doesn't achieve anything that a life sentence (and whilst most murderers don't spend their lives in prison, the dangerous ones generally do, and they can be recalled for any type of further offending) doesn't achieve.

Most homicides are not planned. Of those that are planned, the threat of the death penalty would not influence the decision making. "Oh I was going to rape and murder this schoolgirl, but because they'll execute me instead of locking me in a room for 20 years I shan't bother" said nobody ever.
 

Joe Paxton

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...

If you murder someone, it is justice to lose your own life.

Having read a fair few of your cogent postings on other (principally railway related) matters, I am a bit surprised that you take this view.

It's fairly pointless for me to say this, given the position you take, but I'll say it anyway - it's not justice.
 

Basher

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Just on the light side no cheating by googling. Who were the last prisoners to be locked up in the Tower of London?
 

cb a1

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I know the answer's been given but on the subject of being locked up in the Tower of London, there's a story in my family that my grandfather was locked up there in WW1 for going AWOL.
 

Busaholic

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I know the answer's been given but on the subject of being locked up in the Tower of London, there's a story in my family that my grandfather was locked up there in WW1 for going AWOL.
I'd call that an apocryphal story with a capital A!

Can we nominate FUTURE candidates for locking up in the Tower? I'll go with Failing, Sailing (ever closer to the wind) Grayling, and if it doesn't happen it'll confirm there's no such thing as justice.
 

Mutant Lemming

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..and so it goes on - three men viciously murder a 14 year old boy in cold blood. Those three have shown a blatant disregard for human life and they probably will continue to do so. it is not about vengeance or even justice it is about protecting the rest of us... from the prison officers who have to watch over them.. to you and your family should they ever be released.... the only safe Mad Dog is a dead Mad Dog. Of course each case should always be judged individually but there are just some people who are going to be a threat to the rest of us and why should we pay far more incarcerating or 'looking after' those people who are a constant threat to those around them than we do to children suffering from cancer ? it just make NO sense... they are more important ? The priorities seem all wrong.... spend vast sums on vile, evil murderers and let the innocent die young. Can we have a referendum on this based on the facts ?
 

Bevan Price

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Bevan Price said:
Would you still think the same if "the 2" were members of your family - parent, child, sibling, etc?
Would you be willing to put a rope round their necks, whilst knowing they might be innocent ?

What point exactly is that supposed to illustrate?

Would you be comfortable going to their house and battering the door down and aggressively subduing them, kidnapping them and then throwing them into a locked room? How about if you kept them in a locked building for ever?

My point was to ask if people who supported the death penalty would be willing to personally execute one of their own relatives, or do they just think it is a good idea only if those involved were strangers ?

If you wish to "legally kill" someone who might be innocent, you must be willing to carry out the sentence yourself - on someone close to you, otherwise your views might be considered a bit hypocritical (in my opinion).

Personally, I think that the sentence for all murders (devoid of any extenuating circumstances) should be a mandatory 100+ years in jail with no possibility of release.
(But I would also permit prisoners to "terminate themselves" if they so wished.)
 

AlterEgo

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My point was to ask if people who supported the death penalty would be willing to personally execute one of their own relatives, or do they just think it is a good idea only if those involved were strangers ?

If you wish to "legally kill" someone who might be innocent, you must be willing to carry out the sentence yourself - on someone close to you, otherwise your views might be considered a bit hypocritical (in my opinion).

Why must you be prepared to carry out the sentence yourself? Why make that exception?

The state does many things in our name, but it doesn’t follow that each individual, if he so supports an action, must be prepared to do it himself if need be.
 

fowler9

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Why must you be prepared to carry out the sentence yourself? Why make that exception?

The state does many things in our name, but it doesn’t follow that each individual, if he so supports an action, must be prepared to do it himself if need be.
Well you know, loads of people claim to be religious and that apparently this is a Christian country according to many. Treat others as you would be treated yourself. If you want people executed then do it yourself. Where do we stand if someone kills someone by driving irresponsibly and it can be proved. Should they be executed? If not why not? Where do you draw the line? People reach a certain number of points and it's game over?
 
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bb21

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I have reread this thread and I think it is going nowhere fast. There are two points of view and no meeting of minds or concessions bt either side.
Correct.

The same arguments get trotted out repeatedly each time such a thread surfaced, and lots of people consider themselves morally superior over others for their own quite absolute and extreme views they cannot possibly start to discuss this subject maturely anywhere near a middle ground.

We are just back in old territory so I am closing this thread. Plenty of existing threads on this subject which readers can entertain themselves with often quite morally arrogant views from both sides.
 
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