December 2021 Timetable change

[Watershed]

There is a planned Edinburgh (stopper to Newcastle) through to York in the evening.

Yep, a 'positioning' move to get an 802 to Doncaster depot.

 

[berneyarms]

New timetable pdfs for the December timetable change are now on the following TOC sites:

Avanti West Coast
CrossCountry
EMR
Grand Central
GWR
Hull Trains
London Northwestern (some)
Northern
South Western Railway (including Island Line)
TfL Rail
West Midlands Railway (some)

 

[Alfie1014]

Greater Anglia too.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

New timetable pdfs for the December timetable change are now on the following TOC sites:

Avanti West Coast
CrossCountry
EMR
Grand Central
GWR
Hull Trains
London Northwestern (some)
Northern
South Western Railway (including Island Line)
TfL Rail
West Midlands Railway (some)

Only Hull Trains promotes its new timetable although granted most operators have just rolled their timetables over but be nice if they put out an update noting differences.

 

[sleeper fan]

Any update on when the Weymouth will go half hourly again? Also, the SWR franchise commitment was a Portsmouth to Weymouth service however that go taken back to Bournemouth after some protest in deepest darkest Dorset. Any idea when this will start....if ever?

Interestingly, the GWR 1441 from Great Malvern to Weymouth will be started from Worcester Foregate street from December. A good move as it's regularly started short at Worcester anyway after come off the Brighton. If it does start from Great Malvern it's normally late. Rarely have I got on it when it's been on-time off Great Malvern or called at Great Malvern at all!

 

[Goldfish62]

Any update on when the Weymouth will go half hourly again? Also, the SWR franchise commitment was a Portsmouth to Weymouth service however that go taken back to Bournemouth after some protest in deepest darkest Dorset. Any idea when this will start....if ever?

The franchise under which these commitments were made terminated in March, therefore the slate is wiped clean with a new set of commitments under the current two year national rail contract.

According to the consultation on the December 2022 timetable the Portsmouth to Bournemouth service isn't happening and given SWR's current and worsening rolling stock shortage I wouldn't be surprised if no service enhancements take place anywhere on the network until December 2022.

 

[Chiltern006]

any idea on southeasterns changes

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Any update on when the Weymouth will go half hourly again?

It’s currently half-hourly on Saturdays and stakeholders have been told it’ll go half-hourly again on weekdays from the Summer next year.

 

[infobleep]

The 12:59 London Victoria to Brighton service currently stops at East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Haywards Heath and Brighton arriving at 13:57.

From December this train and others like it but not all will be skipping East Croydon and Haywards Heath but still arriving in Brighton at 13:57.

If they are slipping two stations surely they can make up 8 minutes of time? I'm allowing 2 minutes for a stop and 2 to slow down and speed up, per station.

If they can't speed up the services why remove the stops?

 

[Ianno87]

The 12:59 London Victoria to Brighton service currently stops at East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Haywards Heath and Brighton arriving at 13:57.

From December this train and others like it but not all will be skipping East Croydon and Haywards Heath but still arriving in Brighton at 13:57.

If they are slipping two stations surely they can make up 8 minutes of time? I'm allowing 2 minutes for a stop and 2 to slow down and speed up, per station.

If they can't speed up the services why remove the stops?

To make it Gatwick "Express" again. Just the reality of pathing on the Brighton Mainine.

 

[infobleep]

To make it Gatwick "Express" again. Just the reality of pathing on the Brighton Mainine.

Well in the evening it stops at Haywards Heath

Why can't Gatwick Express stop at East Croydon? It's no slower.

I guess the marketing department can't claim it's non-stop. Even though being non-stop doesn't make it any faster!

If there are driver shortages, surely they need as many trains stopping at places like East Croydon and Haywards Heath at weekends as much as possible.

 

[Ianno87]

I guess the marketing department can't claim it's non-stop. Even though being non-stop doesn't make it any faster!

It's passengers don't care about non-stop making it faster. They more care about non-stop meaning the train isn't full up of local passengers.

 

[JonathanH]

If there are driver shortages, surely they need as many trains stopping at places like East Croydon and Haywards Heath at weekends as much as possible.

There is no shortage of timetabled trains calling at East Croydon and Haywards Heath, even without the stops in the Gatwick Express services. If there is a need for extra capacity to provided due to disruption, the stops can be inserted under special stop orders.

 

[Minstral25]

It would make more sense to stop these services at Clapham Junction to provide a service from Clapham to Brighton for passengers from Clapham, Overground and SWR services. Currently there are just 4 late night services. I know there was an issue with timing stops for extra services but with 2 GX Gatwick only trains per hour not running I am sure they could stop. Obviously there would be an issue with getting the premium fares, so common sense will be out the window to get revenue.

East Croydon to Brighton is provided anyway with 4 Thameslink trains per hour so doesn't need any extra services

 

[sleeper fan]

It’s currently half-hourly on Saturdays and stakeholders have been told it’ll go half-hourly again on weekdays from the Summer next year.

Thank you. Being a local and using the service regularly I must say it's a pain that it's only an hour and it's super slow as well while the likes of Poole have fast trains which uses to start at Weymouth

 

[dk1]

Well in the evening it stops at Haywards Heath

Why can't Gatwick Express stop at East Croydon? It's no slower.

I guess the marketing department can't claim it's non-stop. Even though being non-stop doesn't make it any faster!

If there are driver shortages, surely they need as many trains stopping at places like East Croydon and Haywards Heath at weekends as much as possible.

You would only save around 4 minutes in total.

 

[infobleep]

There is no shortage of timetabled trains calling at East Croydon and Haywards Heath, even without the stops in the Gatwick Express services. If there is a need for extra capacity to provided due to disruption, the stops can be inserted under special stop orders.

If that is the case, why are the trains stopping there now? Or are or other trains being reinstated into the timetable?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It would make more sense to stop these services at Clapham Junction to provide a service from Clapham to Brighton for passengers from Clapham, Overground and SWR services. Currently there are just 4 late night services. I know there was an issue with timing stops for extra services but with 2 GX Gatwick only trains per hour not running I am sure they could stop. Obviously there would be an issue with getting the premium fares, so common sense will be out the window to get revenue.

East Croydon to Brighton is provided anyway with 4 Thameslink trains per hour so doesn't need any extra services

Indeed its an absolute joke that you can't get to Brighton directly from CLJ then given the collapse in airport traffic GX has had its day and should have permanently been removed from the route.

 

[Greetlander]

Northern actually has Hull-Halifax going back to hourly, Lincoln-Sheffield being extended to Leeds again, return of the hourly Liverpool-Warrington Bank Quay and a half hourly Leeds-York via Harrogate which is an improvement even on the pre pandemic timetable. But as the previous poster says this could still change.

Forgive me - I've been away from the UK for too long to have first hand knowledge. By extending Hull-Leeds to terminate at Halifax, is this really just a convenient way of giving Hull more connectivity to Leeds without having to find stabling space at Leeds? Not that I'm complaining about Halifax getting the benefit.

 

[JRT]

Forgive me - I've been away from the UK for too long to have first hand knowledge. By extending Hull-Leeds to terminate at Halifax, is this really just a convenient way of giving Hull more connectivity to Leeds without having to find stabling space at Leeds? Not that I'm complaining about Halifax getting the benefit.

Probably already discussed when the service started a few years ago.

There is an obligation to connect East Leeds local stations with Bradford and Halifax, various services have run this way through the years but later this was provided by the York–Blackpool but the latter now runs semifast.
There was also a desire for an extra Bradford–Halifax train, so it all fitted in at that end.

I think the original idea was to extend through from Bridlington but other trains were retained, so it only runs through from Hull.

 

[cle]

It's passengers don't care about non-stop making it faster. They more care about non-stop meaning the train isn't full up of local passengers.

GatEx passengers probably don't care. Way more folks use Southern/TL than the Express. It's for gullible tourists who don't know any better.

All four tph should call at Clapham and/or East Croydon - but ideally all at all. And 2tph turn/Three Bridges, and 2tph to Brighton per today. Absurd use of paths, especially with Gatwick as it is.

 

[Kite159]

GatEx passengers probably don't care. Way more folks use Southern/TL than the Express. It's for gullible tourists who don't know any better.

All four tph should call at Clapham and/or East Croydon - but ideally all at all. And 2tph turn/Three Bridges, and 2tph to Brighton per today. Absurd use of paths, especially with Gatwick as it is.

Passenger wise, calling at Clapham offers a lot more connections. East Croydon has 4 Thameslink services an hour which run fast from Gatwick to Croydon (plus the slower ones which go via Redhill, but they get overtaken).

The Gatwick Express Brighton services will be used by those passengers travelling end to end from London Victoria to Brighton and gullible tourists who fall for the adverts that Gatwick Express is the best way to travel to Gatwick from London Victoria. Frequent users will use the Southern branded services which in general only take a couple minutes more.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Passenger wise, calling at Clapham offers a lot more connections. East Croydon has 4 Thameslink services an hour which run fast from Gatwick to Croydon (plus the slower ones which go via Redhill, but they get overtaken).

The Gatwick Express Brighton services will be used by those passengers travelling end to end from London Victoria to Brighton and gullible tourists who fall for the adverts that Gatwick Express is the best way to travel to Gatwick from London Victoria. Frequent users will use the Southern branded services which in general only take a couple minutes more.

Gatwick traffic is still well down on 2019 levels and is the furthest behind recovery amongst all the London Airports except Southend. GATEX still not needed don't know how GTR managed to con the DofT into reinstating it.

 

[leytongabriel]

Gatwick traffic is still well down on 2019 levels and is the furthest behind recovery amongst all the London Airports except Southend. GATEX still not needed don't know how GTR managed to con the DofT into reinstating it.

Not difficult given that Southend now has no flights at all it seems!

 

[infobleep]

Gatwick traffic is still well down on 2019 levels and is the furthest behind recovery amongst all the London Airports except Southend. GATEX still not needed don't know how GTR managed to con the DofT into reinstating it.

Is it in the franchise to run it or has everything changed so it isn't? After all, GTR isn't taking the revenue risk.

 

[Ianno87]

. GATEX still not needed don't know how GTR managed to con the DofT into reinstating it.

...perhaps they have some pesky evidence suggesting that is likely to change...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Is it in the franchise to run it or has everything changed so it isn't? After all, GTR isn't taking the revenue risk.

Whats in the franchise is irrelevant now as its what the govt wants them to run but i suspect its just a cut and paste into the EMA so probably still in there and as GTR get a mgt fee on costs expended the more the better.

 

[nw1]

The franchise under which these commitments were made terminated in March, therefore the slate is wiped clean with a new set of commitments under the current two year national rail contract.

According to the consultation on the December 2022 timetable the Portsmouth to Bournemouth service isn't happening and given SWR's current and worsening rolling stock shortage I wouldn't be surprised if no service enhancements take place anywhere on the network until December 2022.

What's the issue with the rolling stock incidentally? Breakdowns? - as I'd have expected them to have a surplus if anything due to less peak services.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What's the issue with the rolling stock incidentally? Breakdowns? - as I'd have expected them to have a surplus if anything due to less peak services.

Delayed introduction of new class 701s means the existing suburban fleet has had to keep going for longer and in some cases has reached a point in an overhaul cycle which has not been funded under the new contract - the railways have a real squeeze on at the moment over unbudgeted expenditure.

 

[nw1]

GatEx passengers probably don't care. Way more folks use Southern/TL than the Express. It's for gullible tourists who don't know any better.

All four tph should call at Clapham and/or East Croydon - but ideally all at all. And 2tph turn/Three Bridges, and 2tph to Brighton per today. Absurd use of paths, especially with Gatwick as it is.

I always thought it was a mistake from a passenger service provision (though I can see the commercial motivations) of running Gatwick Express fast, when a lot of people want to interchange at Clapham in particular.

Far better to run it as a 12-car crowdbuster every 15 mins calling at both Clapham and East Croydon. I'd still run it as a dedicated shuttle, to keep Gatwick passengers off the longer-distance Southern services (reducing overcrowding) and would actually reduce the fares a little to encourage people to use it. Could also hoover up some local London to East Croydon passengers too, again helping the longer-distance services focus on longer-distance traffic.

What perhaps needs to come back is a fast Brighton service too, separate from the 'Gatwick Shuttle', the old '4' was one of the mainstays of the line for most of the electric era. Again, Clapham Junction and East Croydon stops - but then fast to Brighton, or maybe a stop at Haywards Heath.