December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Bletchleyite]

A bus station joining on to a big shopping centre seems to work well in Warrington and Doncaster.

It's a fairly good idea to have the bus station in the location most people want to go in the city centre. Either way with Preston it'd be at one end, but the station end would be more useful than the fairly run down other end. The Fishergate is no longer the premium "first rate" shopping centre it was, it's a bit run down itself with more "second rate" shops in it, but it's still a big destination so far as Preston goes, plus the railway.

It wasn't such a popular idea at the Arndale Centre in Manchester though.

Partly that was because it was an indoor facility (like Aylesbury) which was choked with fumes, and partly the bomb structurally damaged it. Had the latter not happened it may well have lasted, well, at least for as long as Cross St did. And of course Shudehill is just over the road from the Arndale.

 

[Pinus contorta]

The point I was making was not about the busy-ness of individual stations; more that it is more than the London - Scotland market that influences the cross-border service provision. Edinburgh - Newcastle and vv is a much bigger flow than Glasgow - Carlisle ( or indeed, I suspect, than Glasgow & Motherwell to all stations north of Preston combined).

Ah I see. Yea OK.

 

[jayah]

Preferably with a call at Worcestershire Parkway

Improving the timetable to circa 1995 will suffice. No need to slow the trains down further by stopping at wayside car parks.

 

[Birmingham]

Improving the timetable to circa 1995 will suffice. No need to slow the trains down further by stopping at wayside car parks.

Indeed Worcestershire Parkway will remain a wayside car park for as long as useful services do not call at it.

 

[jayah]

Indeed Worcestershire Parkway will remain a wayside car park for as long as useful services do not call at it.

Worcestershire Parkway is a capitulation.

It is an admission policy makers have zero interest in either transport integration or sorting out the structural failures of the planning system that ingrain car dependency across an increasing majority of the population.

 

[JonathanH]

Worcestershire Parkway is a capitulation.

There is a train to train interchange there as well. In concept that is helpful for railway journeys.

 

[Watershed]

There is a train to train interchange there as well. In concept that is helpful for railway journeys.

Indeed in the 2019-2020 ORR passenger statistics showed more people interchanging at Worcestershire Parkway (63,915) than making journeys to/from there (25,478). And that was with just 5 weeks of passenger usage (the station only opened at the end of February 2020).

Whether that actually reflects what people did is another matter (e.g. it may simply not have occurred to people that going from Worcester to Birmingham can be quickest via Parkway, if you've just missed a direct train).

 

[Some guy]

Yes, i forgot about the crew changes.

It’s where Glasgow, Wolverhampton, Edinburgh and Euston drivers and train managers aren’t allowed to travel past so everything stops there. It also provides services to Blackpool, Blackburn, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and York

 

[Watershed]

It’s where Glasgow, Wolverhampton, Edinburgh and Euston drivers and train managers aren’t allowed to travel past so everything stops there. It also provides services to Blackpool, Blackburn, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and York

Plus Manchester drivers.

 

[jayah]

There is a train to train interchange there as well. In concept that is helpful for railway journeys.

There numbers concerned are absolutely miniscule. Far more people would miss connections elsewhere as a result of slowing down the service to stop there.

 

[Birmingham]

Worcestershire Parkway is a capitulation.

It is an admission policy makers have zero interest in either transport integration or sorting out the structural failures of the planning system that ingrain car dependency across an increasing majority of the population.

That’s all well and good, but how is that a reason not to give it a good service now it’s here? Why punish people for whom it could be useful.

Besides car journeys to the station, it also has the potential to facilitate much better cross-country (lower c) connections from across Worcestershire — if more useful services would stop there.

it may simply not have occurred to people that going from Worcester to Birmingham can be quickest via Parkway, if you've just missed a direct train

Sadly not and that’s another problem with this station: the connections don’t even work between the trains that stop there. The train from Worcester to Parkway arrives at xx:20 most hours and the train from Parkway to Birmingham departs at xx:14. Similarly, the train from Birmingham to Parkway arrives at xx:58 and the train from Parkway to Worcester departs at around xx:50.

 

[JonathanH]

Sadly not and that’s another problem with this station: the connections don’t even work between the trains that stop there. The train from Worcester to Parkway arrives at xx:20 most hours and the train from Parkway to Birmingham departs at xx:14. Similarly, the train from Birmingham to Parkway arrives at xx:58 and the train from Parkway to Worcester departs at around xx:50.

Unless one of the trains is going to sit at the station for twenty minutes it isn't going to be possible to match services up on all directions. I guess the fault is that the service on the main line isn't twice hourly but that would involve slowing down services to the South West. The connections from Evesham to Birmingham don't look so bad.

 

[Birmingham]

Unless one of the trains is going to sit at the station for twenty minutes it isn't going to be possible to match services up on all directions. I guess the fault is that the service on the main line isn't twice hourly but that would involve slowing down services to the South West. The connections from Evesham to Birmingham don't look so bad.

It’s a cruel irony that the services that don’t stop would make much better connections, and indeed do when special stops are occasionally made due to the cancellation of Cardiff-Nottingham services (as an aside, such special stops don’t seem to delay those services by very much at all).

 

[mjw]

At the Avanti Timetable event this Tuesday the Midlands Grand Rail Collaboration showed WMT proposals for the Snow Hill line details from the slide below.

Manchester to London trains will pick up additional hourly stops at either Stafford, Nuneaton or Rugby (I imagine the 1tph via Crewe will do the Stafford call with the 2tph via Stoke picking up either Nuneaton or Rugby) with minor extension to journey times.

Here’s the PDF from last week’s timetable event, which summarises all the proposed changes for AWC, LNR and WMT.

 

[jfollows]

Here’s the PDF from last week’s timetable event, which summarises all the proposed changes for AWC, LNR and WMT.

Thank you, very informative.

 

[InOban]

If I click on the link it takes me to the Ordnance Survey!

 

[Jimini]

Never heard it called "North Hampton" before (slide 17)!

 

[AJS90]

Here’s the PDF from last week’s timetable event, which summarises all the proposed changes for AWC, LNR and WMT.

Thank you for posting.

That answers a lot of questions.
The only thing I can’t seem to find mentioned is the London - Blackpool service. Is this being withdrawn completely?

 

[JRT]

Thank you for posting.

That answers a lot of questions.
The only thing I can’t seem to find mentioned is the London - Blackpool service. Is this being withdrawn completely?

Not actually mentioned specifically, but appears on the schematic diagram.

 

[Martin_1981]

Preferably with a call at Worcestershire Parkway

XC did, I believe, propose this a few years ago by extending the Manchester to Bristol services to and from Exeter but at the expense of services to Paignton. Due to opposition it was dropped. I think calling at Worcestershire Parkway was mentioned.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the West Midlands changes, are the local services at New Street changing as part of the preparation for HS2, or will there be a further change again in a few years?

Smethwick Galton Bridge no longer has direct trains to International, although as it was only 1tph (Wales), I cannot see many passengers interchanging from Kidderminster/Stourbridge for the airport/NEC as they would drive (or taxi) via the M5 or M42 and M6.

Also, Kidderminster and Stourbridge to Shrewsbury and mid Wales passengers would most likely drive along the A449 to Wolverhampton to pick up a train there as it is the shortest route and does not involve changing trains.

 

[James90012]

Thank you for posting.

That answers a lot of questions.
The only thing I can’t seem to find mentioned is the London - Blackpool service. Is this being withdrawn completely?

The extra XX:57 departure to Lancaster/Glasgow also isn't referenced so perhaps it's a level of detail that isn't covered in this pack - but it's absence is notable.

Overall it's quite different to what was announced previously but it seems logical for the route. If the Stirling paths are there then presumably those are available in the hours they don't run to serve Blackpool if required.

I'm just relieved the second Liverpool is still on the agenda but I'm concerned that XC services 'are still being planned' and LNWR is down to 1tph Birmingham to Liverpool.

 

[swt_passenger]

XC did, I believe, propose this a few years ago by extending the Manchester to Bristol services to and from Exeter but at the expense of services to Paignton. Due to opposition it was dropped. I think calling at Worcestershire Parkway was mentioned.

The Exeter hourly extensions were in the 2016 XC consultation. Worcestershire Parkway, (or even Worcester), is not mentioned anywhere in that document. Of course it was still a few years away from opening, but I’m sure @The Planner has repeatedly said XC were never going to call with their long distance trains.

 

[The Planner]

The extra XX:57 departure to Lancaster/Glasgow also isn't referenced so perhaps it's a level of detail that isn't covered in this pack - but it's absence is notable.

Overall it's quite different to what was announced previously but it seems logical for the route. If the Stirling paths are there then presumably those are available in the hours they don't run to serve Blackpool if required.

I'm just relieved the second Liverpool is still on the agenda but I'm concerned that XC services 'are still being planned' and LNWR is down to 1tph Birmingham to Liverpool.

Issues with some Hope Valley retimings and XC clashing I think.

 

[Ex-controller]

What a disgrace 1 train per hour to Glasgow is shockingly bad considering LNER have London to Edinburgh every 30 minutes

1tph between London and Glasgow is absolutely fine. Maybe potential for an additional or two in certain hours but a standard 30 minute service would be overkill. Generally these trains, aside from Fridays, are fairly quiet north of Preston.

 

[InOban]

There is a tradition of train travel between Edinburgh and London and much less so from Glasgow. When it was hourly on the east coast, it was, at best, every two hours on the west. The disruption during the west coast upgrade didn't help.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

1tph between London and Glasgow is absolutely fine. Maybe potential for an additional or two in certain hours but a standard 30 minute service would be overkill. Generally these trains, aside from Fridays, are fairly quiet north of Preston.

I don't know how often you take these trains (respectfully acknowledging that it could be very regularly indeed) but each time I've done Glasgow London (London Glasgow often less busy I find) the trains have been very well loaded indeed, particularly in first class these days due to the ridiculous reduction in capacity, and I've done that journey more times than I could count even with a calculator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ooh, thanks for posting that. Shame to lose the direct MKC-Scotland, but the rest of it looks really rather good - in particular Bletchley gaining stops in both "fast" Northamptons (probably make crew changes simpler!) and regaining direct services to Birmingham. I guess the added Bletchley stops aren't just to make my life easier (!) but because of the increased importance of the station with the coming of East West Rail.

Interesting that two out of three Avanti services calling at MKC will be Hitachi units, with only the Manchester being Pendolinos. I get why the semifast Brum thing is happening but I do wonder if that'll cause an exodus to the far cheaper WMT services.

Surprising that the Watford stop in one of the Northamptons isn't balanced by something else only having one, because that'll mean they aren't quite every 30 minutes on one side or the other of Watford.

But overall, it's neat, clean and simple. I like it.

 

[mister-sparky]

Huge rewrite of the Kent timetable for Dec 22 as well. Massive changes happening there.



The changes to Southern Metro are happening in September 2022.

Whats happening with southeastern in december?? Haven’t seen it advertised anywhere else

 

[m4tt]

Does Milton Keynes lose all Glasgow services or will there be a select few which will continue to stop such as the Saturday 06:41 and the 16:40 + 17:40 return?