December 2022 Timetable Changes

[setdown]

The extra XX:57 departure to Lancaster/Glasgow also isn't referenced so perhaps it's a level of detail that isn't covered in this pack - but it's absence is notable.

Overall it's quite different to what was announced previously but it seems logical for the route. If the Stirling paths are there then presumably those are available in the hours they don't run to serve Blackpool if required.

I'm just relieved the second Liverpool is still on the agenda but I'm concerned that XC services 'are still being planned' and LNWR is down to 1tph Birmingham to Liverpool.

2tph Birmingham to Liverpool if demand recovers. In the meantime the 1tph is being made longer because of demand. Eh?

 

[JonathanH]

2tph Birmingham to Liverpool if demand recovers. In the meantime the 1tph is being made longer because of demand. Eh?

The cost of running 2tph of short trains is rather more than 1tph of longer trains. At one point there was a mantra that the network would have fewer longer trains because it helps reliability and is a better use of resources.

 

[Some guy]

1tph between London and Glasgow is absolutely fine. Maybe potential for an additional or two in certain hours but a standard 30 minute service would be overkill. Generally these trains, aside from Fridays, are fairly quiet north of Preston.

You’ve definitely not been using the north west coast Mainline recently. They’re ram packed even worse it’s 2/3 trainloads due to trans-useless express. It should return to having the Birmingham Glasgow service as that worked well

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2022 ==

Thank you for posting.

That answers a lot of questions.
The only thing I can’t seem to find mentioned is the London - Blackpool service. Is this being withdrawn completely?

It says limited service on it meaning it must be going back to 4 per day via Trent valley

 

[dk1]

I seem to recall Virgin posting that in the first year that fast London-Glasgow (Trent Valley) went hourly (10:30/12:30/14:30 originally terminated short at Lancaster under VHF) that there was a huge growth in rails share of the air/rail market.

 

[barbette165]

For WMR services to Leamington and Stratford, how do slides 16 and 23 line up? Slide 16 says that the services will remain at 4 trains per hour but evenly spaced, whilst slide 23 says things will return to 6 trains per hour. Am I being stupid or are they conflicting?

On another point, slide 15, shows Camp Hill line services running from New Street, I thought they were planned to run from Moor Street?

 

[The Planner]

For WMR services to Leamington and Stratford, how do slides 16 and 23 line up? Slide 16 says that the services will remain at 4 trains per hour but evenly spaced, whilst slide 23 says things will return to 6 trains per hour. Am I being stupid or are they conflicting?

On another point, slide 15, shows Camp Hill line services running from New Street, I thought they were planned to run from Moor Street?

Difficult to run into Moor St without the Bordesley chords.

 

[barbette165]

Difficult to run into Moor St without the Bordesley chords.

Oops, forgot about that small issue

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Here’s the PDF from last week’s timetable event, which summarises all the proposed changes for AWC, LNR and WMT.

Very informative shame all TOCs don't produce such an overview for significant timetable changes.

Im guessing putting more stops on the Manchester's will slow down the end to end times.

Also i understand reference to Hitachi units but unlikely any of them will be in traffic for Dec 22?

Finally 76mins London to New St gives HS2 a good run for there money!

 

[ExpressTrain]

What is the rationale between swapping the Sandwell & Dudley/Smethwick Galton Bridge stops on the Shrewsbury stopper and TfW trains? Would have thought the connectivity to the Snow Hill line would’ve been far more useful on the longer journeys out to wales and also to Birmingham International.

 

[JonathanH]

Very informative shame all TOCs don't produce such an overview for significant timetable changes.

They almost certainly do but only share it with stakeholder groups. It isn't as if the overview we have seen is intended for the general public.

There was plenty of material published about the 2015 and 2018 GTR timetable changes. Likewise the SWR consultation.

 

[2T57]

Finally 76mins London to New St gives HS2 a good run for there money!

Indeed. Before Covid, there used to be one non-stop service from New Street to Euston taking 72 minutes, departing at 07.30 Mon-Fri .

 

[peter166]

Its a pity neither of the proposed Avanti Liverpool to London trains will stop at Stafford thus losing the connection with XC trains to Reading/Bournemoth & Bristol. That now means relying on the often unreliable and now only hourly LNWR train to make the connection.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its a pity neither of the proposed Avanti Liverpool to London trains will stop at Stafford thus losing the connection with XC trains to Reading/Bournemoth & Bristol. That now means relying on the often unreliable and now only hourly LNWR train to make the connection.

If I was going from Liverpool to Reading or Bournemouth I'd go via London without question, certainly Reading. XC is dire, and often Advances via London will be considerably cheaper.

Bristol is a good point, though really the answer is to fix the LNR service.

 

[Watershed]

If I was going from Liverpool to Reading or Bournemouth I'd go via London without question, certainly Reading. XC is dire, and often Advances via London will be considerably cheaper.

Bristol is a good point, though really the answer is to fix the LNR service.

For Bournemouth, going via London is certainly quicker (even with the unnecesssarily long cross-London connection times). For Reading it's pretty close and Oxford is no contest.

The convenience of a 1-change option involving a change at a small-ish station such as Stafford, as compared to a 2-change option involving the hassle of the Underground, should not be underestimated.

The problem is that you can't develop service patterns in isolation. Really none of this should have been done without considering what's happening to the XC Voyager services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The convenience of a 1-change option involving a change at a small-ish station such as Stafford, as compared to a 2-change option involving the hassle of the Underground, should not be underestimated.

I'll give you that, but XC is so dire...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2022 ==

Be interesting to watch how well it beds in and whether there will be further tweaks in another year.

Replying here instead of the thread about the Blackpools.

It depends how commuting goes, but I can see those Tring extras in the peaks becoming Bletchley or MKC extras. At the moment it seems that commuting is very much returning from places near London (i.e. Tring south) but much less so from further north e.g. Bletchley which seemed very quiet.

It is in some ways "back to the future" because it's not dissimilar to the old late-2000s Silverlink timetable which had xx23/xx53 fast Northampton, xx24/xx54 semifast MKC and xx04/xx34 Tring, with the peak extending the semifasts to Northampton, the Trings to Bletchley and extra Trings added at xx10/xx40.

I guess the slightly lower frequency from now will be compensated for by there being more 240m workings, as the new 730s can only be 120m (5 car) or 240m (10 car), the sweet spot of 160m (8 car) won't be available on 730 workings. Though the presentation on the timetable thread mentions 8-car, so are we looking, long term, at the Birmingham and Crewe services being 8.350 (12.350 peak for the Birminghams) and the MKC/Trings being 10.730 (5 off peak perhaps)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Be interesting to watch how well it beds in and whether there will be further tweaks in another year.

It depends how commuting goes, but I can see those Tring extras in the peaks becoming Bletchley or MKC extras. At the moment it seems that commuting is very much returning from places near London (i.e. Tring south) but much less so from further north e.g. Bletchley which seemed very quiet.

It is in some ways "back to the future" because it's not dissimilar to the old late-2000s Silverlink timetable which had xx23/xx53 fast Northampton, xx24/xx54 semifast MKC and xx06/xx36 Tring, with the peak extending the semifasts to Northampton, the Trings to MKC or Bletchley and extra Trings added at xx10/xx40.

I guess the slightly lower frequency from now will be compensated for by there being more 240m workings, as the new 730s can only be 120m (5 car) or 240m (10 car), the sweet spot of 160m (8 car) won't be available on 730 workings.

 

[87015]

How many of these peak services are you on? With them all 8 vice 12 there is standing throughout into Euston, no seats from Leighton Tue-Thu except the 0725. Of course the other 12 car they do send is at 0530 and goes straight onto Camden.

Its a massive reduction on that 2000s ish timetable for many intermediate journies, not to mention with all the 'fasts' being Birminghams will be full of cheap tickets rather than people who have to use them and pay more for the privilege.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many of these peak services are you on? With them all 8 vice 12 there is standing throughout into Euston, no seats from Leighton Tue-Thu except the 0725. Of course the other 12 car they do send is at 0530 and goes straight onto Camden.

This is just based on using the semifasts, to be fair, I don't presently use the fasts due to reduced chance of a seat. The lack of 12s at the moment is strange - the 0711 from Bletchley left people behind at Watford last time I used it - but was very, very quiet as far as Tring compared with before.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Ooh, thanks for posting that. Shame to lose the direct MKC-Scotland, but the rest of it looks really rather good - in particular Bletchley gaining stops in both "fast" Northamptons (probably make crew changes simpler!) and regaining direct services to Birmingham. I guess the added Bletchley stops aren't just to make my life easier (!) but because of the increased importance of the station with the coming of East West Rail.

Interesting that two out of three Avanti services calling at MKC will be Hitachi units, with only the Manchester being Pendolinos. I get why the semifast Brum thing is happening but I do wonder if that'll cause an exodus to the far cheaper WMT services.

Surprising that the Watford stop in one of the Northamptons isn't balanced by something else only having one, because that'll mean they aren't quite every 30 minutes on one side or the other of Watford.

But overall, it's neat, clean and simple. I like it.

Or, and this could be entirely mad, but it could be the case that following a few years’ data, they’ve come to decisions designed to improve wider rail ridership.

Nothing to do with EWR, Milton Keynes not contributing meaningful passenger numbers to Scottish trains, and the timetable proposed being extremely robust with a brand new set of calls and patterns.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Pre pandemic, MK was actually building up quite a solid and regular user base on anglo-scottish services and and I know that quite a bit of this has come back in recent times so suspect there may well be backlash not to mention a return to easyJet for quite a few people

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The consultation can be rather confusing to read, so I've put together a map (I'm no artist; don't judge ) to try and explain what the intentions for the final Avanti West Coast service pattern (general off-peak service, no extensions) seem to be, following the timetable change and delivery and introduction of the Hitachi fleet.

Photo shows said map.

 

[Tester]

The consultation can be rather confusing to read, so I've put together a map (I'm no artist; don't judge ) to try and explain what the intentions for the final Avanti West Coast service pattern (general off-peak service, no extensions) seem to be, following the timetable change and delivery and introduction of the Hitachi fleet.

Photo shows said map.

That is an impressive bit of work, and shows things very clearly.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Very pleased to see Nuneaton, Lichfield and Tamworth get an fast London service back off peak.

 

[dk1]

Very pleased to see Nuneaton, Lichfield and Tamworth get an fast London service back off peak.

Yes they’ve done quite nicely out of the timetable reshuffle. What with the LNWR services too they must be in line for one of the best frequencies ever.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Also depending on what the connections look like at Milton Keynes the Birmingham service stopping at Watford and Milton Keynes will provide same platform connections at Milton Keynes into the other routes.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The consultation can be rather confusing to read, so I've put together a map (I'm no artist; don't judge ) to try and explain what the intentions for the final Avanti West Coast service pattern (general off-peak service, no extensions) seem to be, following the timetable change and delivery and introduction of the Hitachi fleet.

Photo shows said map.

Blackpool is completely missing - it was surely covered in the consultation?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That is an impressive bit of work, and shows things very clearly.

Very kind thank you

Blackpool is completely missing - it was surely covered in the consultation?

Blackpool is not a core destination and will revert to having 3 to 4 fast trains via the Trent Valley per day. I did clarify the extensions (Blackpool, Holyhead, Shrewsbury, Wrexham - Gobowen from Dec 23) are not included.

 

[dk1]

Blackpool is completely missing - it was surely covered in the consultation?

It’s just not part of the regular hourly network. Blackpool, Holyhead & the likes are served ad-hoc or in marginal time but will still be served.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Blackpool is not a core destination and will revert to having 3 to 4 fast trains via the Trent Valley per day. I did clarify the extensions (Blackpool, Holyhead, Shrewsbury, Wrexham - Gobowen from Dec 23) are not included.

Blackpool is a weird one as it has practically become part of the core service offering (in the same way as Edinburgh) - it depends whether that will continue. Personally, I do think that three/four fasts via the Trent are more than sufficient.

The thread has previously covered that the Glasgow leg may not return - hence my comment.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Blackpool is a weird one as it has practically become part of the core service offering (in the same way as Edinburgh) - it depends whether that will continue. Personally, I do think that three/four fasts via the Trent are more than sufficient.

The thread has previously covered that the Glasgow leg may not return - hence my comment.

Correct, but the map was created to reflect what the consultation plan says, and that shows a return to the Glasgow service