December 2022 Timetable Changes

[CJ]

The Ordsall Chord has become a bit of a white elephant, with just one tph. All these presumably hourly except Liverpool - Glasgow.

Also a Newcastle - Edinburgh semi-fast?

Indeed. I've updated my comment.

 

[Some guy]

The paths have been reserved (to allow for them potentially to be reintroduced in future) but in December they will continue to run as per today, i.e. alternating Blackpool North and Edinburgh services.

What a disgrace 1 train per hour to Glasgow is shockingly bad considering LNER have London to Edinburgh every 30 minutes

 

[JonathanH]

What a disgrace 1 train per hour to Glasgow is shockingly bad considering LNER have London to Edinburgh every 30 minutes

Isn't it just a measure of historic and current demand? The railway can't afford to run trains which aren't well loaded in either resource or monetary terms. The current timetables may push some of the demand to the east coast but is that such a bad thing when the market for London to Scotland travel is considered as a whole.

 

[Some guy]

Isn't it just a measure of historic and current demand? The railway can't afford to run trains which aren't well loaded in either resource or monetary terms. The current timetables may push some of the demand to the east coast but is that such a bad thing when the market for London to Scotland travel is considered as a whole.

Glasgow is the biggest city in Scotland and the 3rd biggest city in the UK it should have more services.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Glasgow is the biggest city in Scotland and the 3rd biggest city in the UK it should have more services.

Glasgow might be bigger but Edinburgh has greater demand to London across both rail and aviation sectors. Similarly there are more flights from Edinburgh to London than Glasgow.

The population of a city doesn’t necessarily correlate to the demand to travel to other cities.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I don’t think it is unreasonable to suggest that the Glasgow - Birmingham - London should run, even with a 9/390, in order to provide suitable through services to Birmingham (even though two-hourly is pretty pants).

 

[Watershed]

What a disgrace 1 train per hour to Glasgow is shockingly bad considering LNER have London to Edinburgh every 30 minutes

The demand from London to Glasgow is less than that from London to Edinburgh. Hence, unsurprisingly, there are fewer services.

Half as much demand, perhaps not. But rail is inherently inflexible in some ways, and there isn't really much of a half-way house between half-hourly and hourly. And half-hourly certainly isn't warranted.

 

[The exile]

The demand from London to Glasgow is less than that from London to Edinburgh. Hence, unsurprisingly, there are fewer services.

Half as much demand, perhaps not. But rail is inherently inflexible in some ways, and there isn't really much of a half-way house between half-hourly and hourly. And half-hourly certainly isn't warranted.

And, with all due respect to Carlisle, it doesn’t generate the volume of traffic as an intermediate call that Newcastle does!

 

[swt_passenger]

Glasgow is the biggest city in Scotland and the 3rd biggest city in the UK it should have more services.

That’s no way to plan a railway timetable. Where people actually want to go has to have some relevance…

 

[Basil Jet]

That’s no way to plan a railway timetable. Where people actually want to go has to have some relevance…

Come now. If Stourbridge Junction to Stourbridge Town can have 6tph, London to Glasgow deserves at least 60tph.

 

[swt_passenger]

Come now. If Stourbridge Junction to Stourbridge Town can have 6tph, London to Glasgow deserves at least 60tph.

 

[nw1]

Also London to Glasgow (direct, not via Birmingham) always was 1tph, so, as long as that 1tph direct service is still present, it's not a reduction on what applied in the timetables of 2019 or before.

 

[xotGD]

The Ordsall Chord has become a bit of a white elephant, with just one tph. All these presumably hourly except Liverpool - Glasgow.

Also a Newcastle - Edinburgh semi-fast?

I'm still waiting for the Bradford - Manchester Airport service!

I remember the short-lived Northern service that used the chord and terminated at Oxford Road.

 

[Some guy]

Also London to Glasgow (direct, not via Birmingham) always was 1tph, so, as long as that 1tph direct service is still present, it's not a reduction on what applied in the timetables of 2019 or before.

That service was always useful as it provided 3tph to Scotland on the northern wcml and gave Birmingham a service to Glasgow vice versa the 2 largest cities outside of London should have a lot more services

That’s no way to plan a railway timetable. Where people actually want to go has to have some relevance…

It was a popular service as it had cheaper tickets than the express service

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That service was always useful as it provided 3tph to Scotland on the northern wcml and gave Birmingham a service to Glasgow vice versa the 2 largest cities outside of London should have a lot more services


It was a popular service as it had cheaper tickets than the express service

The railway sold cheap tickets to fill up empty seats. It’s been mentioned several times elsewhere on this forum the government preference is to seemingly run less trains but with less of the ‘loss-leader’ cheap fares.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm still waiting for the Bradford - Manchester Airport service!

I remember the short-lived Northern service that used the chord and terminated at Oxford Road.

I think we can kiss that airport service goodbye to be honest. Right now I'd settle for a pre-covid timetable along the Calder, Aire & Wharfe valleys, all of which have seen cutbacks as part of Bradford's "levelling up". Oh, and will we ever see the 2-hourly LNER services to Kings Cross, or have they been quietly shelved?

 

[nw1]

I think we can kiss that airport service goodbye to be honest. Right now I'd settle for a pre-covid timetable along the Calder, Aire & Wharfe valleys, all of which have seen cutbacks as part of Bradford's "levelling up". Oh, and will we ever see the 2-hourly LNER services to Kings Cross, or have they been quietly shelved?

That comment made me laugh. Perhaps this is the real intent of "levelling up"

 

[greyman42]

And, with all due respect to Carlisle, it doesn’t generate the volume of traffic as an intermediate call that Newcastle does!

The same can be said regarding Preston and York.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The same can be said regarding Preston and York.

Preston has excellent connectivity and is more of a regional hub than just a station for what is a small to medium-sized city - sort of like another Crewe but somewhat bigger in itself. However, it's also a natural crew-change point, which is the main reason I'd say everything stops there.

 

[greyman42]

Preston has excellent connectivity and is more of a regional hub than just a station for what is a small to medium-sized city - sort of like another Crewe but somewhat bigger in itself. However, it's also a natural crew-change point, which is the main reason I'd say everything stops there.

Yes, i forgot about the crew changes.

 

[yorksrob]

Isn't it just a measure of historic and current demand? The railway can't afford to run trains which aren't well loaded in either resource or monetary terms. The current timetables may push some of the demand to the east coast but is that such a bad thing when the market for London to Scotland travel is considered as a whole.

They always seem to be ram packed when I get on them at various stages between Wigan and Carlisle

The railway sold cheap tickets to fill up empty seats. It’s been mentioned several times elsewhere on this forum the government preference is to seemingly run less trains but with less of the ‘loss-leader’ cheap fares.

And make the railway passenger service less useful to the country as a whole.

 

[jfollows]

Avanti West Coast
Manchester to London trains will pick up additional hourly stops at either Stafford, Nuneaton or Rugby (I imagine the 1tph via Crewe will do the Stafford call with the 2tph via Stoke picking up either Nuneaton or Rugby) with minor extension to journey times.

My initial thinking is that this sounds bad, but thank you for the heads-up anyway.
Bad because

1. the trains are busy enough already
2. it's exactly the sort of thing that'll be needed after HS2 though
3. it'll be a pain not being able to move into free seats as soon as today’s service allows

but presumably a recast of the timetable will allow it which wouldn't be possible otherwise. And, also, post-Covid my statement about the trains being busy enough might be wrong. It's certainly true that, today, Wilmslow-Crewe-London and vice-versa is a nice service without the additional stops.

 

[2T57]

An hourly XC service between Exeter and Birmingham would be a start.

Preferably with a call at Worcestershire Parkway

 

[Pinus contorta]

The same can be said regarding Preston and York.

Preston can get rammed with Passengers coming from Blackpool Barrow Blackburn very qui kly. I suppose it has not got a Metro system feeding passengers into it like Newcastle has though.

Platform 3 & 4 at Preston seem to be able to cope with large numbers but 6 is very narrow when the Avanti gets routed on that side going south.

 

[The exile]

Preston can get rammed with Passengers coming from Blackpool Barrow Blackburn very qui kly. I suppose it has not got a Metro system feeding passengers into it like Newcastle has though.

Platform 3 & 4 at Preston seem to be able to cope with large numbers but 6 is very narrow when the Avanti gets routed on that side going south.

The point I was making was not about the busy-ness of individual stations; more that it is more than the London - Scotland market that influences the cross-border service provision. Edinburgh - Newcastle and vv is a much bigger flow than Glasgow - Carlisle ( or indeed, I suspect, than Glasgow & Motherwell to all stations north of Preston combined).

 

[northwichcat]

It's looking like it will be (subject to change):

Liverpool - York
Liverpool - Hull
Liverpool - Cleethorpes
Liverpool - Glasgow
Manchester Victoria - Newcastle
Manchester Piccadilly - Scarborough
Manchester Airport - Saltburn
Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh
Newcastle - Edinburgh
Manchester - Huddersfield
Huddersfield - Leeds

Is the new timetable for Northern & TPE still set for December 2022? I watched bits of the recent Rail North committee meeting and someone representing West Yorkshire was talking about December 2023 when referring to the new, full timetable and the Northern & TPE managers didn't correct her when responding to that. One thing the Northern manager implied was they would rob Peter to pay Paul if one line doesn't return to pre-COVID level usage, while another route goes above pre-COVID levels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Preston can get rammed with Passengers coming from Blackpool Barrow Blackburn very qui kly. I suppose it has not got a Metro system feeding passengers into it like Newcastle has though.

Platform 3 & 4 at Preston seem to be able to cope with large numbers but 6 is very narrow when the Avanti gets routed on that side going south.

Newcastle has a significantly larger population, to be fair. But Preston isn't just serving connections by rail, a lot of people drive there or go there by bus (more would do the latter if the bus station was more sensibly located).

 

[northwichcat]

I'm still waiting for the Bradford - Manchester Airport service!

I remember the short-lived Northern service that used the chord and terminated at Oxford Road.

That proposed service went in the bin, alongside other franchise commitments that were written in to the old Northern franchise, like Macclesfield to Blackpool, additional Greenbank to Manchester trains, Hazel Grove to Manchester every 15 minutes etc. Tbh you're lucky Bradford got the through service to Chester.

Newcastle has a significantly larger population, to be fair. But Preston isn't just serving connections by rail, a lot of people drive there or go there by bus (more would do the latter if the bus station was more sensibly located).

Doesn't Preston claim to have one of the biggest bus stations in the world, even if the design isn't to a lot of people's likes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't Preston claim to have one of the biggest bus stations in the world, even if the design isn't to a lot of people's likes?

It's a beautiful building, and has been restored quite nicely, but is in the wrong place. They'd have been better redesignating it for new purposes and building a new bus station at the back of the Fishergate Centre.

 

[northwichcat]

building a new bus station at the back of the Fishergate Centre.

A bus station joining on to a big shopping centre seems to work well in Warrington and Doncaster. It wasn't such a popular idea at the Arndale Centre in Manchester though.