December 2022 Timetable Changes

[frodshamfella]

Probably because it doesn't apply. Runcorn East to Liverpool via Warrington is a long way round for a journey that can be made direct from Runcorn's primary station. Frodsham and Helsby aren't huge. Ellesmere Port has a frequent service via the Wirral.

Is there lots of potential demand from the stations west of Liverpool to stations south of Warrington?

The service from Chester to Liverpool Lime St has proved a popular service, however we are still coping with 1 train every 2 hours. I was told by TFW its May when the hourly service returns

 

[Bletchleyite]

The service from Chester to Liverpool Lime St has proved a popular service, however we are still coping with 1 train every 2 hours. I was told by TFW its May when the hourly service returns

I'm slightly surprised at that (other than for Frodsham-Liverpool which I get, but Frodsham is small). Merseyrail is operating 4tph semifast at the moment.

 

[Kite159]

I'm slightly surprised at that (other than for Frodsham-Liverpool which I get, but Frodsham is small). Merseyrail is operating 4tph semifast at the moment.

I wouldn't call merseyrail as semifast due to skipping two stations along the way. More a "Semi-stopper".

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't call merseyrail as semifast due to skipping two stations along the way. More a "Semi-stopper".

Three I believe. But either way, Merseyrail often wins due to its frequency and simplicity.

 

[frodshamfella]

I'm slightly surprised at that (other than for Frodsham-Liverpool which I get, but Frodsham is small). Merseyrail is operating 4tph semifast at the moment.

I get on at Frodsham, to reach Liverpool, I always find it well used, standing even at times. The surprising part is that it is, even with an appalling service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get on at Frodsham, to reach Liverpool, I always find it well used. The surprising part is that it is, even with an appalling service.

That's an interesting crossover to the Portishead thread where it's being argued people won't use hourly services into and around major cities. This is two-hourly...

 

[frodshamfella]

That's an interesting crossover to the Portishead thread where it's being argued people won't use hourly services into and around major cities. This is two-hourly...

Hourly would be wonderful !! Anyhow, its returning eventually !

 

[TheGarner]

Seems like Warrington West has been slapped down again. It's a such a shame such a brand new station like this has got so little services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems like Warrington West has been slapped down again. It's a such a shame such a brand new station like this has got so little services.

I still question the wisdom of having built it.

 

[TheGarner]

I still question the wisdom of having built it.

The location some what makes sense - It's right next to a newish estate and there is a lot of houses on both sides of the station. It's a lot better than Sanky for Penketh in terms of facilities. The times I have used it, there is always quite a few people there getting on/off the train.

But the lack of services obviously doesn't help.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The location some what makes sense - It's right next to a newish estate and there is a lot of houses on both sides of the station. It's a lot better than Sanky for Penketh in terms of facilities. The times I have used it, there is always quite a few people there getting on/off the train.

But the lack of services obviously doesn't help.

Sankey has a better catchment in terms of the area around it. WAW is too close to Warrington C to have as much benefit.

Having both would probably be OK once the line is electrified; I'd have held off until then.

 

[TheGarner]

Sankey has a better catchment in terms of the area around it. WAW is too close to Warrington C to have as much benefit.

Having both would probably be OK once the line is electrified; I'd have held off until then.

I'm surprised they kept Sankey open to be honest. Seeing as WAW does have the better facilities in the end. But both stations suffer the same issue with services currently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm surprised they kept Sankey open to be honest. Seeing as WAW does have the better facilities in the end. But both stations suffer the same issue with services currently.

It's probably all a bit in the air until someone decides what should happen to the line - electrification at 25kV or Merseyrail-Metrolink. If the latter is chosen, two stations 1km apart aren't all that out of kilter, there's a number of such station pairs on Merseyrail and Metrolink. Indeed, I could see sense in adding a couple more (e.g. at the hospital, and one at the west edge of Warrington west of Sankey with new development around it) if the "local only, high frequency" role is chosen for the line, plus "Ball o'Ditton" and "Barrow's Green", but that really needs NPR building. If it remains as an important long distance line, Sankey should probably close.

This is probably one of those odd cases where Parly-ing it does make sense until a decision is made. The times are at least useful ones.

 

[mangyiscute]

I think a lot of recently opened lines and stations are proof of the "if you build it they will come" - this is why its so frustrating that development of new lines and stations is so slow atm

 

[frodshamfella]

I think a lot of recently opened lines and stations are proof of the "if you build it they will come" - this is why its so frustrating that development of new lines and stations is so slow atm

here here !!

 

[hexagon789]

I thought the 2tph each way (plus a few peak extras) was quite reasonable, no?

Is that lower than other comparable stations in that area then?

 

[LowLevel]

I'm surprised they kept Sankey open to be honest. Seeing as WAW does have the better facilities in the end. But both stations suffer the
same issue with services currently.

I believe the intention was originally to shut it but owing to objections they shut the booking office but maintained the current "sulky service".

It seems to serve little purpose now, aside from providing a hangout for the local ferals in the waiting shelter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the 2tph each way (plus a few peak extras) was quite reasonable, no?

Is that lower than other comparable stations in that area then?

WAW only has 1tph at present.

It's increased to 2 (one Liverpool-Warrington, one Liverpool-Manchester) not-quite-clockface-but-close from Dec. This seems very reasonable; there's no good reason the expresses should be doing an extra stop that close to Warrington Central, and removing Birchwood to allow for it is going to wreck a lot of established commutes to the industrial and office parks around it.

 

[Greybeard33]

The Manchester Task Force proposal (subject to funding) is to build turnback sidings west of Warrington West and east of Birchwood. These would enable overlapping split stoppers Liverpool - Birchwood and Manchester - Warrington West, thereby maintaining cross-Warrington connectivity.

Of course, Warrington West would never have been built if the cost of these turnbacks had been included in the business case.

 

[30907]

The Manchester Task Force proposal (subject to funding) is to build turnback sidings west of Warrington West and east of Birchwood. These would enable overlapping split stoppers Liverpool - Birchwood and Manchester - Warrington West, thereby maintaining cross-Warrington connectivity.

Of course, Warrington West would never have been built if the cost of these turnbacks had been included in the business case.

But why should they have been?
The case for the turnbacks is (presumably) to allow a better overall service pattern with the stopping service split at Warrington as it was a generation ago - and Central is awkward for terminating trains, especially from the Manchester side.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But why should they have been?
The case for the turnbacks is (presumably) to allow a better overall service pattern with the stopping service split at Warrington as it was a generation ago - and Central is awkward for terminating trains, especially from the Manchester side.

The key problem with the punctuality/reliability of the line in the late 90s when I used it daily was indeed that lack of ability to get anything out of the way. Once any train left Oxford Road, the sequence was in effect locked in, which with the (un)punctuality of the Norwich (Castlefield itself wasn't a great issue back then) meant the whole line fell to bits with annoying regularity.

So anything that keeps diagrams simple and allows delayed trains to end up back the right way round (rather than the Norwich following an all-stations as happened far too often) is good.

 

[Greybeard33]

But why should they have been?
The case for the turnbacks is (presumably) to allow a better overall service pattern with the stopping service split at Warrington as it was a generation ago - and Central is awkward for terminating trains, especially from the Manchester side.

The original MTF plan for the December 2022 timetable was for the stoppers to be split at Warrington Central (2tph to Liverpool, 1tph to Manchester, calling all stations). The existing infrastructure was judged adequate for this. But Warrington lobby groups insisted that Warrington West must retain direct services to Manchester.

 

[LowLevel]

The key problem with the punctuality/reliability of the line in the late 90s when I used it daily was indeed that lack of ability to get anything out of the way. Once any train left Oxford Road, the sequence was in effect locked in, which with the (un)punctuality of the Norwich (Castlefield itself wasn't a great issue back then) meant the whole line fell to bits with annoying regularity.

So anything that keeps diagrams simple and allows delayed trains to end up back the right way round (rather than the Norwich following an all-stations as happened far too often) is good.

On the down you've limited regulating opportunities using Glazebrook loop, although that inevitably causes delay to anything held there, and on the up you have a tiny amount of grace between Wavertree and Allerton with the slow lines to use but there really isn't much doing. It should have been electrified years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It should have been electrified years ago.

Absolutely - I can think of few routes in the North West more justifying of the wires.

 

[hexagon789]

WAW only has 1tph at present.

It's increased to 2 (one Liverpool-Warrington, one Liverpool-Manchester) not-quite-clockface-but-close from Dec. This seems very reasonable; there's no good reason the expresses should be doing an extra stop that close to Warrington Central, and removing Birchwood to allow for it is going to wreck a lot of established commutes to the industrial and office parks around it.

That's what I meant - isn't the increase from December reasonable?

I read previous posts as implying the service was staying hourly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's what I meant - isn't the increase from December reasonable?

I'd agree it is, yes. I don't think removing a stop at Widnes or Birchwood (one express each if I recall) to allow WAW an express stop would be reasonable, and pathing on the line is incredibly tight.

 

[hexagon789]

I'd agree it is, yes. I don't think removing a stop at Widnes or Birchwood (one express each if I recall) to allow WAW an express stop would be reasonable, and pathing on the line is incredibly tight.

Does WAW even need a fast service?

If the anecdotal evidence that WAW has been underused is correct, then surely a simple doubling of the basic service is quite sufficient for now before adding anything else.

 

[cle]

If not Merseyrail/Metrolink split with a meet at Warrington Central (my vote for various reasons of frequency, uniformity in stopping, metro-ization/de-carbon and release of paths at both ends for other services) - - - - then I think this line works best for local services.

The issue is that no great frequency can ever really be realized (and it should be 4-6tph in reality, it would be, say, in Japan - two patterns nicely flighted) - because the Manchester end is a mess. Either another terminal point could be found - for example both platforms at Oxford Road (5 and 1 - but issues with latter) - or maybe a Cornbrook solution could be made, again to add frequencies and feed the Met.

Sadly due to Castlefield, I don't see this ever being as useful as it would be on either metro network at their respective 4tph and 5tph patterns. The long distance services should be re-routed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The long distance services should be re-routed.

Which requires Northern Powerhouse Rail, unless you're willing to close Whiston, Rainhill*, St Helens Jn**, Lea Green, Earlestown, Newton-le-Willows, Patricroft and Eccles to allow Chat Moss to only be for fast trains.

* This could never happen, given the historical connection it'd hit the Press just as hard as images of a certain viaduct in the Yorkshire Dales did. It's not an important station in particular, but it would be the heart of a campaign.
** You might get away with keeping one, probably this one or Earlestown.

 

[Killingworth]

Does WAW even need a fast service?

If the anecdotal evidence that WAW has been underused is correct, then surely a simple doubling of the basic service is quite sufficient for now before adding anything else.

It's hardly fair to judge any new station that opened in 2019 and barely started before Covid hit. 2 reliable trains each hour should make a big difference if local word gets round. (Anyone for a 3 hour trip to Cleethorpes?)