December 2022 Timetable Changes

[hexagon789]

I note that, from tomorrow and as previously discussed, direct Huddersfield-Castleford services are set to return (instead of the rail replacement bus). What is the planned traction for these services? Two-car 150?
Cheers


And with that, I have reached 200 posts on this forum...

150218 doing the honours today

 

[infobleep]

Haywards Heath gets Gatwick Express calls all day.

Only just noticed. I am pleasantly surprised by this. Clearly it was felt the extra call was worth putting on vers putting people off who want a fast Brighton service to London.

The Haywards Heath stop being removed was discussed last year here:

December 2021 Timetable change

There is a planned Edinburgh (stopper to Newcastle) through to York in the evening. Yep, a 'positioning' move to get an 802 to Doncaster depot.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[sammyg901]

the 0800 from Oxford and 0803 from Birmingham Snow Hill arrivals into London Marylebone were 8 coaches this morning. Assuming that's the regular plan this along with some other tweaks should help with complaints from Haddenham and Thame Parkway etc commuters about very crowded trains. I didn't use the line for a few years in "the before times" but don't remember 8 coach services on Chiltern Railways before, usually 7 is the max you'd see (at weekends mainly these days)

Of course a 1 day only thing as we won't see Chiltern back from Birmingham until well into January!

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Forgive me if this has been suggested before, as I haven't read the last 65 pages, but is the publishing of a new timetable at the moment not a bit, well, redundant? With the various strikes and industrial relations issues destroying services over the next month, as well as the much-discussed "timetable of the day" nonsense... what's the point in doing anything to change the timetable? I would say that there is no confidence that the "timetable" for any given service would reflect the reality on any given day - passengers could be forgiven for thinking at the moment that a timetable is, frankly, a work of fiction.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Forgive me if this has been suggested before, as I haven't read the last 65 pages, but is the publishing of a new timetable at the moment not a bit, well, redundant? With the various strikes and industrial relations issues destroying services over the next month, as well as the much-discussed "timetable of the day" nonsense... what's the point in doing anything to change the timetable? I would say that there is no confidence that the "timetable" for any given service would reflect the reality on any given day - passengers could be forgiven for thinking at the moment that a timetable is, frankly, a work of fiction.

It happens twice a year anyway, strikes or no strikes.

 

[JonathanH]

Forgive me if this has been suggested before, as I haven't read the last 65 pages, but is the publishing of a new timetable at the moment not a bit, well, redundant?

You still have to have a base timetable, against which services can be withdrawn as necessary.

 

[Goldfish62]

It happens twice a year anyway, strikes or no strikes.

SWR postponed their Dec 2019 timetable until January 2020 due to guards strike action.

 

[geoffk]

You still have to have a base timetable, against which services can be withdrawn as necessary.

And a complete recast of services through Manchester, which affects a wide area.

 

[stephen rp]

And a complete recast of services through Manchester, which affects a wide area.

Especially Warrington. Appalling TPE today with the "Express" Cleethorpes-Liverpool that replaces one of the locals between Oxford Road and Warrington. Of 15 each way, only five have run through Warrington. That leaves Urmston, Irlam and Birchwood with 1 tph when they're cancelled. Come back Northern, all is forgiven.

TPE have actually taken the early one from Liverpool out of their timetable - it's still shown in the national timetable and in Northern's 16 timetable (which includes all trains on the CLC).

 

[BrianB]

Especially Warrington. Appalling TPE today with the "Express" Cleethorpes-Liverpool that replaces one of the locals between Oxford Road and Warrington. Of 15 each way, only five have run through Warrington. That leaves Urmston, Irlam and Birchwood with 1 tph when they're cancelled. Come back Northern, all is forgiven.

TPE have actually taken the early one from Liverpool out of their timetable - it's still shown in the national timetable and in Northern's 16 timetable (which includes all trains on the CLC).

It has been removed from the NRT across tables 021, 086, 087 and 096 in this portal https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2022/

 

[hooky3]

First Monday of the new timetable and 3 services from Inverness to Edinburgh were worked by single 158s…

 

[DaveB10780]

The Buxton line today seemed to be 2 cars only for all trains, they have been mostly 4 car for a while. Is this how it is going to be on weekdays now, will be fun when one is cancelled.

 

[stephen rp]

It has been removed from the NRT across tables 021, 086, 087 and 096 in this portal https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2022/

At least we've still got Network Rail electronic to tell us what should have happened...

It's shambolic.

 

[Man_with_beard]

What happened to the new 22:15 Manchester to London that was supposed to start running today? Cant see it anywhere in the timetable either.

 

[Bikeman78]

Especially Warrington. Appalling TPE today with the "Express" Cleethorpes-Liverpool that replaces one of the locals between Oxford Road and Warrington. Of 15 each way, only five have run through Warrington. That leaves Urmston, Irlam and Birchwood with 1 tph when they're cancelled. Come back Northern, all is forgiven.

I predicted this scenario. Admittedly strikes and weather have probably made it worse, but it was never going to be good news for the stations relying on TPE.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

First Monday of the new timetable and 3 services from Inverness to Edinburgh were worked by single 158s…

Bearing in mind this is the winter timetable through to May does this really cause a capacity problem when traffic is lighter on this line out of season? From memory in BR days the longer trains only ran in the summer timetable on this line.

 

[Class 170101]

Surely the DfT is the customer of Avanti these days? Us passengers are customers of the DfT.

And totally disrespected customers at that.

 

[Killingworth]

Especially Warrington. Appalling TPE today with the "Express" Cleethorpes-Liverpool that replaces one of the locals between Oxford Road and Warrington. Of 15 each way, only five have run through Warrington. That leaves Urmston, Irlam and Birchwood with 1 tph when they're cancelled. Come back Northern, all is forgiven.

TPE have actually taken the early one from Liverpool out of their timetable - it's still shown in the national timetable and in Northern's 16 timetable (which includes all trains on the CLC).

TPE Cleethorpes-Liverpool was predicted as a disaster waiting to happen by many who responded to consultations about the new arrangements to tackle the Castlefield congestion. Adding the current industrial relations based issues after Covid makes that inevitable.

Those watching ITVs Calendar in South Yorkshire tonight will have seen a rail story around strikes. Rail users at Scunthorpe and Dore & Totley on this route were interviewed. Before this week both stations were in the worst 50 in the country for punctuality of trains. I can't see improvement any time soon

 

[Peterthegreat]

TPE Cleethorpes-Liverpool was predicted as a disaster waiting to happen by many who responded to consultations about the new arrangements to tackle the Castlefield congestion. Adding the current industrial relations based issues after Covid makes that inevitable.

Those watching ITVs Calendar in South Yorkshire tonight will have seen a rail story around strikes. Rail users at Scunthorpe and Dore & Totley on this route were interviewed. Before this week both stations were in the worst 50 in the country for punctuality of trains. I can't see improvement any time soon

Indeed. I understand around 15% of TPE drivers have retired in the last 9 months and more are to do so in the next year.
Whilst Covid restrictions and driver training have exacerbated the issue it's quite clear TPE/DfT/HMG have severely underestimated the effects this has had on the service.

 

[507020]

Especially Warrington. Appalling TPE today with the "Express" Cleethorpes-Liverpool that replaces one of the locals between Oxford Road and Warrington. Of 15 each way, only five have run through Warrington. That leaves Urmston, Irlam and Birchwood with 1 tph when they're cancelled. Come back Northern, all is forgiven.

TPE Cleethorpes-Liverpool was predicted as a disaster waiting to happen by many who responded to consultations about the new arrangements to tackle the Castlefield congestion. Adding the current industrial relations based issues after Covid makes that inevitable.

The TPE Lime Street - Cleethorpes replaces the semi-fast Northern Lime Street - Manchester Airport like for like, not one of the locals. I am quite happy with the stopping pattern although it could do with Warrington West as well. I travelled on the first service towards Manchester on a very snowy CLC line. It left at 12:19 - The first 6 services were all cancelled. Some started from the main shed at Piccadilly and one started from Oxford Road, but this is not really appropriate when it is not simply an optional extension of a Manchester - Cleethorpes service.

Other than that it was a very pleasant journey, not overcrowded with only 3 cars and I will certainly be using it again, but that said I was intending to get the 08:19 service and then the 12:19 ended up being delayed by a Northern Lime Street - Warrington Central 195 which was late leaving Lime Street and not overtaken before Liverpool South Parkway, so I only arrived in Manchester 4¼ hours late.

 

[infobleep]

I don't know if this has been mentioned as I didn't find it in the thread but I have come across some fantastic and surprising news.

There is now a Monday to Thursday 0:33 London Waterloo to Guildford service calling at Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Woking and Guildford. It departs Clapham Junction at 0:44. Previously the last fast service was at 23:32 Monday to Friday.

The stopping service that use to be the last one now terminates at Woking but gets in first, thereby still allowing a connection to Guildford.

On Fridays the 0:33 becomes 0:40 and departs Clapham Junction at 0:49. On Saturday nights the 0:40 departs Clapham Junction at 0:51. There is also the existing 0:16, which skips Vauxhall.

Earlier this year during the lying in state for the Queen, I got a fast train from Vauxhall to Clapham Junction for fun before changing onto a Guildford train. Now I can go all the way on a fast train.

Sunday doesn't change, as far as I am aware, and the last train is the 0:01 stopping service via Cobham. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[g22]

What happened to the new 22:15 Manchester to London that was supposed to start running today? Cant see it anywhere in the timetable either.

It was removed from the base Dec 22 Timetable around the same time as when they decided they could not run 3tph to Birmingham in Dec 22 TT.

 

[stephen rp]

The TPE Lime Street - Cleethorpes replaces the semi-fast Northern Lime Street - Manchester Airport like for like, not one of the locals. I am quite happy with the stopping pattern although it could do with Warrington West as well. I travelled on the first service towards Manchester on a very snowy CLC line. It left at 12:19 - The first 6 services were all cancelled. Some started from the main shed at Piccadilly and one started from Oxford Road, but this is not really appropriate when it is not simply an optional extension of a Manchester - Cleethorpes service.

Other than that it was a very pleasant journey, not overcrowded with only 3 cars and I will certainly be using it again, but that said I was intending to get the 08:19 service and then the 12:19 ended up being delayed by a Northern Lime Street - Warrington Central 195 which was late leaving Lime Street and not overtaken before Liverpool South Parkway, so I only arrived in Manchester 4¼ hours late.

It replaces the Liverpool-Manchester local that no longer runs beyond Warrington Central. (The Northern service to the Airport hasn't run since the pandemic *). It's in that path, but calls at Irlam and Urmston to replace the local - and the time that takes means there isn't time to call at Warrington West (except on Sunday when it doesn't call at Irlam and Urmston).

* This was supposed to be a flagship service for Northern (old regime). That included the daft idea of saving 4 minutes in its times by making the local leave Lime St first, cross SL at Wavertree Jn, get overtaken by the Airport train, then cross back at South Parkway (adding 8 mins to the local's time, and crossing the Down Fast twice).

Supposedly reversing the Cleethorpes-Airport trains at Piccadilly was "operationally difficult", one reason given for extended them to Liverpool, but if they regularly curtail them at Manchester, they'll occupy a platform for an hour (though yesterday one of the westbound services with TC difficulties that meant it couldn't go beyond Piccadilly turned round in 5 mins and went back to Cleethorpes).

I hope they've dropped the idea of TPE taking over the Liverpool-Nottingham route leaving EMR with just Nottingham-Norwich.

 

[YorksLad12]

Can't see these on RTT

Try https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...9/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT - the morning journeys only ran on Monday, there's no service until Saturday because of strikes. All P5 at Huddersfield apart from the first through journey to Castleford

 

[swissrailpassion]

Try https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...9/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT - the morning journeys only ran on Monday, there's no service until Saturday because of strikes. All P5 at Huddersfield apart from the first through journey to Castleford

Thanks I see them now.

 

[507020]

It replaces the Liverpool-Manchester local that no longer runs beyond Warrington Central. (The Northern service to the Airport hasn't run since the pandemic *). It's in that path, but calls at Irlam and Urmston to replace the local - and the time that takes means there isn't time to call at Warrington West (except on Sunday when it doesn't call at Irlam and Urmston).

* This was supposed to be a flagship service for Northern (old regime). That included the daft idea of saving 4 minutes in its times by making the local leave Lime St first, cross SL at Wavertree Jn, get overtaken by the Airport train, then cross back at South Parkway (adding 8 mins to the local's time, and crossing the Down Fast twice).

Supposedly reversing the Cleethorpes-Airport trains at Piccadilly was "operationally difficult", one reason given for extended them to Liverpool, but if they regularly curtail them at Manchester, they'll occupy a platform for an hour (though yesterday one of the westbound services with TC difficulties that meant it couldn't go beyond Piccadilly turned round in 5 mins and went back to Cleethorpes).

I hope they've dropped the idea of TPE taking over the Liverpool-Nottingham route leaving EMR with just Nottingham-Norwich.

It may have a revised stopping pattern to compensate for the inappropriate truncation of the stopping service at Warrington Central, but it is a direct replacement for the Northern Airport service. It initially survived the pandemic. I used it on 16 September 2021 as far as East Didsbury, as well as other occasions, probably knowing it would be withdrawn within weeks, but I found it full and standing with a 6 car 195s and recall overtaking a 156 somewhere between Mossley Hill and West Allerton.

There’s a lot wrong with those slow lines in:
1. Why they have survived in the first place but remain virtually unused,
2. Why there is not a 4 track junction onto them at Edge Hill,
3. Why Wavertree and Sefton Park stations have not survived when sufficient capacity to serve them exists on the slow lines,
4. Why only the fast lines have access to the Allerton curve, requiring slow CLC services calling at Mossley Hill and West Allerton to block the fast lines and
5. Why they run on the east/north side of the formation necessitating a flyover when the Runcorn Bridge diverges to the south and the fast lines into Lime Street are on the south side of the formation.

I will note that if Monday’s 12:19 service had overtaken the train in front, it would not have reached Castlefield 16 minutes late. The reason/excuse I have seen given for not reversing anything at Piccadilly is that it takes up 2 paths for the price of 1, despite the fact that there may not be enough platforms to run an additional train and that reversing at Piccadilly is not as capacity compromising as crossing the throat to reach Guide Bridge from Castlefield, reversing at Oxford Road or attempting to traverse the Ordsall Chord.

That said, Lime Street - Cleethorpes removes 2tph from the already saturated Styal line, doubles the frequency (and more than doubles the capacity) between Lime Street/Warrington Central and Stockport/Sheffield and frees up 195s for other services in favour of underutilised 185s. I would argue that it would be more sensible for Greater Anglia to take over the Nottingham - Norwich portion of the EMR service than for TPE to take the Lime Street - Nottingham.

 

[Jimini]

I’m sure someone at Avanti doesn’t like me..

I’ve posted on here before about the removal of super off peak fares and the cost going up 50% or so to £60 for an off peak return from Cov to London (appreciating the bonus restrictions on times of course that come with SOP tickets), so I’ve ended up splitting tickets at Milton Keynes to get the cost back down to £40 wherever possible, noting the restrictions that come with that as not all AWC services stop at MK to allow the split so have to avoid those.

However, looks like in the new timetable, my old stalwart, the 2136 out of Euston north (the last proper fast train before the two track stuff kicks in) has had the MK stop made pick up only, so one can no longer split to get the cost back down to where it was in March!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti appear to have done that with a couple of the mid-evening Pendolinos (2136, 2147). I doubt it has anything to do with preventing splits - are they perhaps trains where on the current limited timetable they were being crowded out by people going to MK which was causing people to be left behind on those trains and thus costing a stack of delay repay? There are a couple but not all in the evening peak too.

While it doesn't help you, there's a 2133 which doesn't have that restriction, just three minutes earlier. MKC passengers are presumably intended to use that.

But if you want to save why not just use LNR?

 

[Jimini]

Avanti appear to have done that with a couple of the mid-evening Pendolinos (2136, 2147). I doubt it has anything to do with preventing splits - are they perhaps trains where on the current limited timetable they were being crowded out by people going to MK which was causing people to be left behind on those trains and thus costing a stack of delay repay? There are a couple but not all in the evening peak too.

While it doesn't help you, there's a 2133 which doesn't have that restriction, just three minutes earlier. MKC passengers are presumably intended to use that.

But if you want to save why not just use LNR?

The 2133 doesn’t go to Coventry as you intimate aye — I guess I could take that one and change at MK?, but it’s a bit nippy out at the moment and might not even be a valid connection?

All I’m after is a nice and simple ~1hr journey that we had for years that a) doesn’t involve changing, or b) takes an age and goes via Northampton. Considering that until Avanti landed neither of these scenarios were necessary — shouldn’t be too much to ask without forking out for an unsolicited 50% increase in fare.

Never seen goalposts move so much! !

 

[Watershed]

The 2133 doesn’t go to Coventry as you intimate aye — I guess I could take that one and change at MK?, but it’s a bit nippy out at the moment and might not even be a valid connection?

All I’m after is a nice and simple ~1hr journey that we had for years that a) doesn’t involve changing, or b) takes an age and goes via Northampton. Considering that until Avanti landed neither of these scenarios were necessary — shouldn’t be too much to ask without forking out for an unsolicited 50% increase in fare.

Never seen goalposts move so much! !

It's a valid connection at MK (minimum connection time is the standard 5 mins and the 21:33 gets in at 22:04, whilst the 21:36 leaves at 22:11). But obviously not a particularly attractive prospect, not least because all of the best seats will likely be gone.

I share your frustration that you can't even get a 10pm train out of Euston without crawling behind a stopper on the slow lines. No other four track mainline out of London has such a rubbish late-evening service.