December 2023 Timetable Change

[Mamorin]

They have been for a while, but don't get many of us started on the Sunday service.

Some of the services were getting cancelled rather frequently aka removed from RTT completely. Gad that won't be the case from december.

Sunday service to Stoke will not improve for a long time if ever at least with Northern due to drivers contracts, honestly XC could do with filling in the gaps at some of Northern's busiest stations on the line on to Stoke via Macclesfield on Sundays. Though I know XC won't do that.

Glad to see the 331s getting limited to peak extras on Stoke stoppers, as 331s are not needed outside of those times.

 

[td97]

Northern due to drivers contracts

Guards

 

[Mamorin]

Oh yeah forgot about Guards contracts. That also prevents Northern from increasing their Sunday services.

Once all the Gaurds/Drivers on First North Western/Northern Rail terms have retired then the Northern network may have a chance at having an hourly Sunday service on services like Stoke stoppers.

Shame XC won't fill in the gaps at some of Northern's busiest stations on the route, but nothing can be done about that.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I wonder whether there's a reluctance to convert that particular ECS to passenger service, despite being perfectly feasible to do so, as there may possibly be a longer term aspiration to restore the 2234 Reading to Shalford to Redhill or Gatwick, as previously and in such a scenario the ECS would dissapear and so if the ECS were to run in passenger service then you'd have to withdraw that which would inconvenience any passengers that had come to rely upon it.

This could well be the case. The other consideration is whether there are instances of any frequency where an engineering work item (say, Blackwater-Wokingham from midnight) would require the set to remain at Guildford and the additional train would therefore need to be bussed in addition to the later train behind it. Even a few instances per year would probably outweigh the marginal revenue gain from running it in service on all the other weeks I suspect.

 

[FenMan]

This could well be the case. The other consideration is whether there are instances of any frequency where an engineering work item (say, Blackwater-Wokingham from midnight) would require the set to remain at Guildford and the additional train would therefore need to be bussed in addition to the later train behind it. Even a few instances per year would probably outweigh the marginal revenue gain from running it in service on all the other weeks I suspect.

You're suggesting occasional operational inconvenience outweighs the benefit for the rest of the year. Okay, we're talking about the numbers. But your suggestion is to look down rather than up. If so, then things need to change. I've never worked in the quasi-public sector, but if I'd heard that rationale why something shouldn't be done where I worked for many years (yep, an American multinational) it would be given extremely short shrift and those "in the way" would, at the very least, be leaving the team or, more likely, exiting the company very shortly afterwards, unless they could back up their views with solid numbers.

The cost of running the 2234 from Reading ECS back from Guildford to Reading is sunk unless the guard happens to live near Guildford. If she doesn't, the equation turns into "does the marginal income of her working on a train in service back to Reading improve the financial outcome vs the (already sunk) cost?"

Hmm .... I very much doubt if any GWR guards live near Guildford.

The other suggestion would be that Network Rail's pricing for running over their infrastructure is skewed in favour of ECS movements. In which case that'd need a revisit too.

 

[bramling]

You're suggesting occasional operational inconvenience outweighs the benefit for the rest of the year. Okay, we're talking about the numbers. But your suggestion is to look down rather than up. If so, then things need to change. I've never worked in the quasi-public sector, but if I'd heard that rationale why something shouldn't be done where I worked for many years (yep, an American multinational) it would be given extremely short shrift and those "in the way" would, at the very least, be leaving the team or, more likely, exiting the company very shortly afterwards, unless they could back up their views with solid numbers.

Would the private sector do something if a business case for doing it couldn’t be made? The suggestion here seems to be that making the service concerned into a passenger one is unlikely to make sound business sense.

 

[David Turner]

The Network Rail timetable running from the 10th December 2023 to the 1st June 2024 is now available to download from:

Electronic national rail timetable - Network Rail

David Turner, Adelaide, South Australia.

 

[takno]

You're suggesting occasional operational inconvenience outweighs the benefit for the rest of the year. Okay, we're talking about the numbers. But your suggestion is to look down rather than up. If so, then things need to change. I've never worked in the quasi-public sector, but if I'd heard that rationale why something shouldn't be done where I worked for many years (yep, an American multinational) it would be given extremely short shrift and those "in the way" would, at the very least, be leaving the team or, more likely, exiting the company very shortly afterwards, unless they could back up their views with solid numbers.

The cost of running the 2234 from Reading ECS back from Guildford to Reading is sunk unless the guard happens to live near Guildford. If she doesn't, the equation turns into "does the marginal income of her working on a train in service back to Reading improve the financial outcome vs the (already sunk) cost?"

Hmm .... I very much doubt if any GWR guards live near Guildford.

The other suggestion would be that Network Rail's pricing for running over their infrastructure is skewed in favour of ECS movements. In which case that'd need a revisit too.

This kind of "the only reason you aren't doing things is because you're a large slow-moving organisation, how hard can it be?" mentality is of course what made Railtrack a complete failure as an organisation. You are looking at an empty stock train and assuming that it is simply impossible that it would be difficult or expensive to run in service, and that therefore the only reason it's running empty is because somebody can't be bothered to make it happen. It's entirely possible that it's been costed up and will cost a lot of money. Several of us have suggested reasons why this might be.

At the end of the day most passengers tend to prefer a railway where the advertised trains actually turn up, rather than one with a fantastic service on paper which then turns out not to run on the day they decide to depend on it. This applies double to the last train of the day, where it's really important for the passenger to know it's going to run and it's more likely for NR to need the track for work.

 

[swt_passenger]

Feasible may be an overstatement here. It's not at all clear that the train running empty requires a guard, so one would need to be rostered. In addition it would need to spend a significant amount of time on station stops, not least having to run through platforms at Reading rather than straight round to the depot.

An ECS service from the Wokingham direction towards Reading depot has to run through a platform though, there’s no alternative route.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Would the private sector do something if a business case for doing it couldn’t be made? The suggestion here seems to be that making the service concerned into a passenger one is unlikely to make sound business sense.

Absolutely this - all things being equal, in the current industry climate if it doesn’t pay, it doesn’t get introduced. Of course if an external body (be it DfT, local council, association of Blackwater Valley residents - whatever) came along and offered the funding, much like a bus service it could then happen.

Money is a tool not an end but denying it is an important factor in a feasibility study is a quick route to failure.

 

[Smethwickian]

The Network Rail timetable running from the 10th December 2023 to the 1st June 2024 is now available to download from:

Electronic national rail timetable - Network Rail

David Turner, Adelaide, South Australia.

But if you go to it via the compiler's site at https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2023/ that, I believe, is subsequently updated more regularly.

 

[Baji]

According to the Southern website some Horsham/Dorking services have increased from 5 to 8/10 coaches, does anyone know which ones specifically have been lengthened?

My prediction would be the 15:41 London Victoria to Horsham service which will return for the 19:11 London Victoria to Dorking service would be services to be increased from 5 coaches to 8 or 10 as they get very crowded (between London Victoria and Sutton).
I also reckon weekend particularly Saturday will have many services increased to 8 or 10 coaches because they are increasing busy.
These are just predictions because data shows standing space is limited on those services.

 

[wls1]

If anyone is interested, first day of the new timetable c2c are on diversion, going over Gas Factory Curve every 30 minutes on Sunday 10th December. Rarely used in passenger service so if anyone needs this section, this Sunday would be a good opportunity.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Gas Factory Jn between 0200 and 0159 on 10/12/2023

Train information at Gas Factory Jn between 0200 and 0159 on 10/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Chiltern006]

Add the 17th December to that aswell

 

[td97]

TfW will not be implementing some TT improvements next week due to lack of rolling stock.

TfW rail service update

Transport for Wales will now increase train service frequency on its Liverpool - Chester route (via Liverpool Airport), and on the Ebbw Vale branch, in January 2024.

news.tfw.wales

Transport for Wales will now increase train service frequency on its Liverpool - Chester route (via Liverpool Airport), and on the Ebbw Vale branch, in January 2024.

This represents a slight delay on the original plan to make the changes from next week (10 December 2023).

Following the storms in November, several trains have suffered wheel damage, and a repair programme will take place throughout December. This will ensure that TfW have enough serviceable trains to increase the timetables on the Liverpool Chester route, and on the Newport to Ebbw Vales route in the new year.

A spokesperson for Transport for Wales said: “We have a comprehensive programme in place for repairing the damaged wheels on the trains affected, which will take most of December to complete. This will cause a few weeks of delay to delivering the frequency enhancements planned as part of the December 2023 new timetable.

“Our engineers are working as fast as they can to get the repairs completed, which will put us in a stronger position to reliably deliver the new services, making sure we have enough rolling stock.”

 

[Llandudno]

TfW will not be implementing some TT improvements next week due to lack of rolling stock.

TfW rail service update

Transport for Wales will now increase train service frequency on its Liverpool - Chester route (via Liverpool Airport), and on the Ebbw Vale branch, in January 2024.

news.tfw.wales

What a surprise…not!

 

[ChrisC]

The Nottingham to Birmingham trains are now back in the timetable, which along with the Nottingham to Cardiff trains, now restores the 2tph between Nottingham and Birmingham. These had temporarily been removed from the timetable because of work taking place at Birmingham New Street. I was quite surprised to see the BBC reporting this as a new service being introduced.

Extra hourly train service to run between Birmingham and Nottingham

The new CrossCountry service is running between Birmingham and Nottingham via Derby.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[GoneSouth]

The Nottingham to Birmingham trains are now back in the timetable, which along with the Nottingham to Cardiff trains, now restores the 2tph between Nottingham and Birmingham. These had temporarily been removed from the timetable because of work taking place at Birmingham New Street. I was quite surprised to see the BBC reporting this as a new service being introduced.

Extra hourly train service to run between Birmingham and Nottingham

The new CrossCountry service is running between Birmingham and Nottingham via Derby.

www.bbc.co.uk

Ah more XC spin about ‘new’ or ‘enhanced’ services. Truth is they still aren’t at the level they were 4 years ago and probably never will be.

The problem I can see here is the levels of cancellation on the Cardiff Nottingham route is already pretty poor, I suspect this will make it even worse

 

[Class 170101]

Reflects more the standard of journalism unfortunately. The BBC should get Paul Clifton to front their national journalism about rail just BBC South.

 

[43055]

The Nottingham to Birmingham trains are now back in the timetable, which along with the Nottingham to Cardiff trains, now restores the 2tph between Nottingham and Birmingham. These had temporarily been removed from the timetable because of work taking place at Birmingham New Street. I was quite surprised to see the BBC reporting this as a new service being introduced.

Extra hourly train service to run between Birmingham and Nottingham

The new CrossCountry service is running between Birmingham and Nottingham via Derby.

www.bbc.co.uk

Also mentions the longer distance services will be sped up as well. Probably to only to wait for an extra few mins at Derby or Birmingham.

 

[ChrisC]

Also mentions the longer distance services will be sped up as well. Probably to only to wait for an extra few mins at Derby or Birmingham.

Exactly. To add to the extra time some XC trains are already waiting at Derby on services where the Chesterfield stop has been cut. It has done nothing to reduce long distance end to end times but inconvenienced passengers travelling from Nottingham to the north who have lost many same platform connections at Chesterfield. It’s far easier than having to carry luggage over the bridge at Sheffield and also spreads the number of people alighting and boarding avoiding added crowding at Sheffield.

 

[Llandudno]

Exactly. To add to the extra time some XC trains are already waiting at Derby on services where the Chesterfield stop has been cut. It has done nothing to reduce long distance end to end times but inconvenienced passengers travelling from Nottingham to the north who have lost many same platform connections at Chesterfield. It’s far easier than having to carry luggage over the bridge at Sheffield and also spreads the number of people alighting and boarding avoiding added crowding at Sheffield.

Correct!

The other issue is that the (Nottingham) - Chesterfield - Leeds Northern service can only be operated by 2 car units (usually 195s) owing to a short platform at Leeds and these services are regularly overcrowded even at off peak times, reinstating the Chesterfield call on the hourly cross country trains would help share the loadings more evenly.

 

[infobleep]

I was so looking forward to the new two trains an hour service on the North Downs Line.

Alas the 17:07 is cancelled due to lack of train crewe. The 17:11 was the train I use to often.l get, with a change at Redhill and Horley. I was looking forward to saving 20 minutes.

It seems my joy is short lived and it will have to wait until the new year.

I shall get the train 31 minutes later and put in a delay repay claim instead. That train at least hasn't been cancelled.

I hope this is just a one off and not a train that will regularly be cancelled when there are issues with stock availability and such like.

 

[FenMan]

I was so looking forward to the new two trains an hour service on the North Downs Line.

Alas the 17:07 is cancelled due to lack of train crewe. The 17:11 was the train I use to often.l get, with a change at Redhill and Horley. I was looking forward to saving 20 minutes.

It seems my joy is short lived and it will have to wait until the new year.

I shall get the train 31 minutes later and put in a delay repay claim instead. That train at least hasn't been cancelled.

I hope this is just a one off and not a train that will regularly be cancelled when there are issues with stock availability and such like.

GWR say today's cancellations (plural) on the North Downs are due to a shortage of staff.

 

[infobleep]

GWR say today's cancellations (plural) on the North Downs are due to a shortage of staff.

I see the 17:07 was reinstated since I posted that message. No idea how late they reinstated it but it left Reading online, although not Guildford on time. I didn't think to check again, so annoyingly ended up on a later train than I would have liked and one that is running late.

They must have got lucky and found some staff. Good on them for doing so.

Not sure why a lot of the NDL trains are running late today. Even the 16:20, which departed on time, was running late. At least they haven't termined the trains short.

 

[trainJam]

The Network Rail timetable running from the 10th December 2023 to the 1st June 2024 is now available to download from:

Electronic national rail timetable - Network Rail

David Turner, Adelaide, South Australia.

Unfortunately, the train reporting number ID headers have been removed from the public eNRT.
The notes document still refers to them however.

 

[3RDGEN]

Northern have introduced the two hourly Newcastle - Middlesbrough express service, due to the ongoing delay to reinstating the platform at Hartlepool they run non stop Sunderland - Thornaby so well done to Northern.

 

[sp503]

Apparently the North Downs Line service enhancement was not entirely funded by GWR savings elsewhere. At least according to what Gatwick Airport claims.

London Gatwick on LinkedIn: More services between Reading and Gatwick Airport as new December…

Travelling to Gatwick from Reading just got a lot easier. Partly funded by London Gatwick, the service to and from our newly refurbished train station is now…

www.linkedin.com

 

[Howardh]

Not sure if this is down to the new timetable, but yesterday a six-car (2x3) TPE train from the airport to Saltburn turned up at Victoria (1315); can't recall that service being six coaches before, maybe it has and I've been unlucky. But in my experience 5 has been the "best".

 

[JonathanH]

Not sure if this is down to the new timetable, but yesterday a six-car (2x3) TPE train from the airport to Saltburn turned up at Victoria (1315); can't recall that service being six coaches before, maybe it has and I've been unlucky. But in my experience 5 has been the "best".

It can be, and has only been, 3 or 6 coaches, as only 185s in TPE's fleet go to Saltburn.