Delay compensation on a SailRail journey

[feline1]

Hi, I wonder if anyone here has a view on whether SailRail fares are eligible for delay compensation?

I travelled on a SailRail ticket from Brighton to Belfast via Holyhead.
I arrived about 2 hours late due to one of the journey legs being delayed, so I missed a connection and had to get the following service.

"No problem" I thought, and simply filled in the Delay Compensation firm on the ticket vendor's site (Arriva TW).
However they came back saying "you need to claim from the operator who caused the delay"...
...which was Stena, the ferry (and linking bus) operator.

"OK" I said, and claimed from Stena. They said they don't do Delay Compensation.
"But I didn't buy one of your tickets, I bought a SailRail ticket, the terms and conditions from the vendor say it's subject the National Conditions of Carriage" I said. (see https://www.buytickets.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/terms.aspx )

"COMPUTER SAYS NO" retorted Stena.

I escalated to the transport watchdog/ombudsman thingie http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/
"Oh we don't do ferries" they said.
"Who says you don't do ferries?" I asked.
"The Department of Transport" they said. "Bye!"

Is there any escape from this Kafkaesque dead end?

 

[yorkie]

What was your planned itinerary, and what was your actual itinerary?

If Stena caused the delay, there is not much you can do to compel them to compensate you.

It could be worse; they could charge you for the delay, like taxis do!

 

[Greenback]

I don't think that ferry companies are covered by the rail industry refund arrangements. I suppose that it could be argued that they should be, since you can buy a through ticket covering both rail and sea journeys, but I've never really thought much about it.

I reckon it's probable that if it were ever suggested that they were covered, the result would simply be that the through tickets would be discontinued.

 

[najaB]

Unfortunately for you, ATW will only compensate you for a delay due to the train portion of the journey. And Stena aren't a TOC so aren't covered by the NRCoC.

What was the reason for the delay?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I would say it is entirely up to Stena and not an Arriva matter. The NRCOC does not say it is a TOC problem.

A ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you and each Train Company whose trains you have the right to use. Where the company selling you the ticket is not one of the Train Companies on whose services you are travelling, the seller is acting as agent for the Train Company or Companies in whose trains you are entitled to travel.

If a ticket entitles you to any goods or services from another party (including the right to travel in another party’s transport services), it is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party. The conditions relating to these additional goods or services may be different, and will be obtainable from that other party.

Thus whilst you have a SailRail ticket, the ticket just shows it is evidence of a contract between you and the other transport provider, in this case Stena, who will provide you with their conditions which would no doubt include their refund / compensation arrangements.

The NRCOC also says:

Where delays, cancellations or poor service arise for reasons within the control of a Train Company or Rail Service Company, you are entitled to compensation in accordance with the arrangements set out in that Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter.

Which I believe makes it clear that the Train Company's responsibility is only for matters within their control. Clearly Stena (or the weather) is not within their control.

 

[bb21]

Ferry companies are not subject to the NRCoC. Delay Repay is also separate to the NRCoC.

Who caused you the delay? If Stena, then unless they have a compensation arrangement then you pretty much have no claim.

 

[sheff1]

Rights of ferry travellers are covered by EU Regulations as explained here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...CA_Summary_of_EU_Regulation_FINAL_3.12.14.pdf

 

[talltim]

So is the 'final destination' the end point of the ferry journey or the final destination on the Sail Rail ticket?

 

[feline1]

What was your planned itinerary

Copying from my itinery email sent my Arriva TW:

Journey 1: BRIGHTON to BELFAST CENTRAL
Travel on Wednesday 23 December 2015
Departs Arrives By Reservations
07:12 - Brighton 08:23 - London Victoria Train (GATWICK EXPRESS) Reservation not possible.
08:23 - London Victoria 09:10 - London Euston Tube (Unknown Service Provider) Reservation not possible.
09:10 - London Euston 12:50 - Holyhead Train (VIRGIN TRAINS) Coach: A Seat: 16
13:50 - Holyhead 17:05 - Dublin Port (Stena) Ferry (ARRIVA TRAINS WALES) Reserved - no seat allocated.
17:05 - Dublin Port (Stena) 19:00 - Dublin Connolly Transfer (Unknown Service Provider) Reservation not possible.
19:00 - Dublin Connolly 21:05 - Belfast Central Train (IRISH RAIL) Reservation not possible.
*The passenger is free to sit in any vacant unreserved seat for the class of travel specified on the ticket
Ticket details

Passengers: 1 Adult(s)

Ticket Type: SAILRAIL SINGLE
Route: Valid for travel via Holyhead Stena Line ship service.

and what was your actual itinerary?

I missed the 19:00 Enterprise service from Dublin Connolly to Belfast Central,
so ended up on the

20:50 - Dublin Connolly 22:55 - Belfast Central
instead (2 hours later)

I don't think that ferry companies are covered by the rail industry refund arrangements. I suppose that it could be argued that they should be, since you can buy a through ticket covering both rail and sea journeys, but I've never really thought much about it.

Yes, well this is what I'm trying to get clarity on.
In the past, it takes so long for Irish Rail's services to make it onto the UK booking system that I gave up waiting for them (because the seat reservations Euston > Hollyhead would be sold out by the time they were available!) - I always purchased that leg seperately, so I never had a true through ticket.

However this time, they'd seemed to nudge their ticket release forward a couple of weeks, so for the first time ever I had a genuine through ticket. Yay! I thought I was covered for delays end-to-end....

I suppose that it could be argued that they should be, since you can buy a through ticket covering both rail and sea journeys, but I've never really thought much about it.

My line of reasoning is simply "what do the terms and conditions say on the site that sold me the ticket?"
Here they are: https://www.buytickets.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/terms.aspx
As far as I can see, it clearly states that all tickets you buy there are subject to the National Conditions of Carriage and there's no mention of any exceptions for that not applying to SailRail.
ArrivaTW can hardly say they don't know about SailRail, as they're currently the only UK TOC selling it! (I think ScotRail stopped?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What was the reason for the delay?

Well, Stena and I disagree on this point.

They claimed 'The cause of this disruption was due to the prevailing adverse weather conditions .... I refer to the section marked Bad Weather in our Terms of Business, which states:
" we cannot accept liability for any costs or inconvenience caused if the delay is due to bad weather”'

I dispute that the reason I missed my connection was entirely due to "bad weather". I pointed out to them it was also due to:

- their checkin area at Holyhead port being badly run: only 1 checkin desk out of three open, passengers queued back all the way to the doors in a total mess. At one point I could see the checkin was delayed as the person on the desk didn't have a pen They didn't finish checking us in (to the departure lounge) until 5 mins before the ship was due to sail - and we still had 20 mins of being driven onto the boat on a bus to go by that point.

- Insisting on boarding/disembarking footpassengers last, after all motorists, even though they'd sailed and arrived late, and most of the foot passengers would have onward connections to make

- their baggage reclaim at Dublin Port being a complete shambles, with us standing around for half an hour until they finally got the luggage on the carousel

- the shuttle busses they lay on taking ages to load, ages to leave... not least because, despite being at an international ferry port coming from the UK, they don't take Sterling. They only take Euros. There is a cash machine dispensing Euro bank notes in the terminal, but then the driver grumbles and sighs at each and every passenger "Have you nothing smaller? Have you no change?"

Even with the delayed sailing arrival, if baggage reclaim and the shuttle bus hadn't been done at tortoise speed, I could've still made my connection at Dublin Connolly (I literally only missed it by 5 minutes!)


In any case, I also am skeptical that Stena's Terms of Business apply to me. I didn't buy a ticket with them, I bought a ticket with Arriva TW, and the Terms & Conditions on their site say the National Conditions of Carriage apply, and those only make an exception for EXTREME weather. It doesn't define "Extreme" but I would say it's reasonable to equate that to a Met Office Severe Weather Warning? There wasn't one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thus whilst you have a SailRail ticket, the ticket just shows it is evidence of a contract between you and the other transport provider, in this case Stena, who will provide you with their conditions

Ah - I didn't spot that bit before.
That does not look promising - as Stena's Terms & Conditions are basically "WHY DON'T YOU JUST FLY?!?"

 

[najaB]

ArrivaTW can hardly say they don't know about SailRail, as they're currently the only UK TOC selling it! (I think ScotRail stopped?)

That is not correct.

As far as I can say, it clearly states that all tickets you buy there are subject to the National Conditions of Carriage and there's no mention of any exceptions for that not applying to SailRail.

The NRCoC limits a train company's responsibilities in Condition 7:

7. Train Company’s responsibilities The Train Company whose trains you have the right to use, or who has agreed to provide you with any other goods or services, is responsible for providing the goods or services it has agreed to provide. However, the Train Company or its agent(s) are not responsible for:
(a) another Train Company not running any trains;
(b) another party not providing goods or services;

Even if you don't accept that, in Condition 42 which you are relying upon:

42. Compensation for delays
(a) Where delays, cancellations or poor service arise for reasons within the control of a Train Company or Rail Service Company, you are entitled to compensation in accordance with the arrangements set out in that Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter. This can be obtained from the relevant Train Company’s ticket offices, customer relations office and internet sales site.

A delay to a ferry doesn't fall into the category of things within ATWs control. So ATW definitely don't have an obligation to compensate you.

In any case, I also am skeptical that Stena's Terms of Business apply to me. I didn't buy a ticket with them, I bought a ticket with Arriva TW...

If you still have your boarding card with you, turn it over. It says that passengers are carried in accordance with Stenaline's terms of business.

 

[feline1]

Rights of ferry travellers are covered by EU Regulations as explained here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...CA_Summary_of_EU_Regulation_FINAL_3.12.14.pdf

Ah, that is useful, thank you.

The problem with that document is that, whilst it considers delays and compensation for them, it does not consider onward connections... which is not much use for a combined SailRail ticket scenario.
I think the actual sailing only arrived about 45 mins late, which is under that document's threshold for delay...
it was only me missing my advertised rail connection that made me 2 hours later overall.

That document also has an exemption for "bad weather which would affect the safe sailing of the vessel".
Stena will of course claim this covers everything, but I myself fail to see how bad whether stops them having a pen, or makes them take the best part of an hour to give everyone their bags back and put them on a bus...

If you still have your boarding card with you, turn it over. It says that passengers are carried in accordance with Stenaline's terms of business.

I do still have it! ... and the back of it is completely blank. There's nothing about Stena's Terms of Business anywhere.

So is the 'final destination' the end point of the ferry journey or the final destination on the Sail Rail ticket?

of the SailRail ticket

Hmmm, well, thanks for all the answers, guys.
The NRCOC seem to make it pretty clear that I'm at the mercy of Stena's own Terms of Business.

Stena are claiming the delay was entirely due to bad weather, so I can go get stuffed.
I'm claiming the delay wasn't.
The applicability of the statutory provisions from the EU is made ambiguous because they're worded as applying to the ferry journey in isolation, not considering onward connections.

Is there any watchdog/regulator/ombudsman who can adjudicate for me with Stena as to their claim that the delay was entirely due to bad weather, vs. my list of them just generally being crap?
"Transport Focus" wash their hands of it.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Ah, that is useful, thank you.

The problem with that document is that, whilst it considers delays and compensation for them, it does not consider onward connections... which is not much use for a combined SailRail ticket scenario.
I think the actual sailing only arrived about 45 mins late, which is under that document's threshold for delay...
it was only me missing my advertised rail connection that made me 2 hours later overall.

That document also has an exemption for "bad weather which would affect the safe sailing of the vessel".
Stena will of course claim this covers everything, but I myself fail to see how bad whether stops them having a pen, or makes them take the best part of an hour to give everyone their bags back and put them on a bus...



I do still have it! ... and the back of it is completely blank. There's nothing about Stena's Terms of Business anywhere.



of the SailRail ticket

Hmmm, well, thanks for all the answers, guys.
The NRCOC seem to make it pretty clear that I'm at the mercy of Stena's own Terms of Business.

Stena are claiming the delay was entirely due to bad weather, so I can go get stuffed.
I'm claiming the delay wasn't.
The applicability of the statutory provisions from the EU is made ambiguous because they're worded as applying to the ferry journey in isolation, not considering onward connections.

Is there any watchdog/regulator/ombudsman who can adjudicate for me with Stena as to their claim that the delay was entirely due to bad weather, vs. my list of them just generally being crap?
"Transport Focus" wash their hands of it.

You can take it as read that if the ferry was on time, even with all the ineptitude that Stena seemed to be showing, you would've made the train. I'd argue that the ineptitude would've happened anyway, so Stena blaming the weather is probably on the money.

That doesn't mean Stena (and the bus company) can't improve. Of course they can...

 

[feline1]

Ho hum.
I must say that the attractiveness of SailRail as an integrated through ticket is rather reduced if the ferry company can simply wash their hands of all responsibility for keeping to the advertised connections and compensating passengers for any delays :/
I had thought that SailRail had an advantage over getting a train to an airport in that regard, but it seems I was wrong. The ferry company no more care about my train connections than Ryanair would.

You can take it as read that if the ferry was on time, even with all the ineptitude that Stena seemed to be showing, you would've made the train. I'd argue that the ineptitude would've happened anyway, so Stena blaming the weather is probably on the money.

That doesn't mean Stena (and the bus company) can't improve. Of course they can...

Yes, I tend to agree - as you can see from my itinery, the National Rail journey planner makes sure to leave a very generous changeover time between the ferry's arrival in Dublin Port and departure from Dublin Connolly - probably well aware of how sluggish Stena's footpassenger disembarkation and baggage reclaim is.
I knew this too - which is why I made sure I had an itinery which didn't involve the last Dublin > Belfast train of the evening, but instead had a failsafe backup train I could catch.
I've always booked it that way, but this was my first time with an end-to-end through ticket - didn't help!
It would be nice if Stena made an effort to speed up footpassenger disembarkation & baggage reclaim in the event of late ferry arrival, but they don't. And unless anyone knows of a regulator I can escalate to, there doesn't seem any way to press them on the issue. Their customer services were totally dismissive about it.

 

[najaB]

AI do still have it! ... and the back of it is completely blank. There's nothing about Stena's Terms of Business anywhere.

Now that is interesting, they must've changed their stock as I've got several and they all have text to that effect on the back.

 

[feline1]

Now that is interesting, they must've changed their stock as I've got several and they all have text to that effect on the back.

I guess it makes no difference ... there's always some small print somewhere which covers their ass... in this case, one sentence in a 17-screen online Terms & Conditions which leads to one clause in a 35 page NRCoC stored in a disused filing cabinet at the bottom of some stairs with the light broken and a notice saying "Beware of the Leopard" on the door. Ah well...

 

[kevinwaltets]

If you want to appeal Stenas position,Look here. I don't hold out much hope for you though having been part of the consultation on these regulations.

I believe your ship arrived within 2 hours of the advertised time and Stena are not responsible for the port handling facilities.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/441103/MGN_504.pdf

 

[najaB]

If you want to appeal. Look here...

But before you appeal, consider this. An Anytime return Dundee to Ayr is £62.50. A return Cairnryan-Belfast ferry is at least £44. Dundee-Belfast is £68 for an Anytime return.

Do we really want to rock this boat?

 

[feline1]

I believe your ship arrived within 2 hours of the advertised time

It did indeed (not that that was much use for me making a rail connection, but hey...)

and Stena are not responsible for the port handling facilities.

They're not? In which case their branding on the the port terminal, the baggage handling stuff's uniforms, and even on the ticket for the shuttle bus to Dublin Connolly station were A CUNNING DISGUISE

 

[kevinwaltets]

Sorry I should rephrase that. I would be very surprised indeed if Stena are responsible for running the port.

I can tell you that I was part of the consultation from a UK domestic passenger vessel operators point of view.

The DfT ( MCA) had the duty to consult the industry on this as it was a peice of legislation imposed on us from the EU. There was not much flavour for this in the industry nor from the MCA as far as I could tell as there were serious concerns about the harm this legislation could do to UK shipping.

There are many reasons why a ship can be delayed Totally out of the control of the ship operator such as pilotage and port vessel traffic control to name a couple.

It would be completely wrong to have legislation that penalises shipping companies for such delays which would be relatively short. But if for example, your ship breaks down and you experience a significant delay you are covered.

Kevin

Edit

Other good reasons for a delay to a ship:,

Your ship needs a tug for berthing, but the harbour authority or agent cannot provide one immediately because it is busy elsewhere.

The berth you have to use is blocked by another ship and you are directed to wait.

The Harbourmaster has given a special direction preventing you from entering the port.

These examples are totally out of the control of the ship operator and unlike rail shipping operators have a right to use facilities under the Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847. With the UK rail network every one operating has to sign up to network rails terms in order to operate.

 

[najaB]

They're not? In which case their branding on the the port terminal, the baggage handling stuff's uniforms, and even on the ticket for the shuttle bus to Dublin Connolly station were A CUNNING DISGUISE

None of which is what kevinwaltets meant by the port handling facilities. These are provided by the Dublin Port Company.

 

[Greenback]

But before you appeal, consider this. An Anytime return Dundee to Ayr is £62.50. A return Cairnryan-Belfast ferry is at least £44. Dundee-Belfast is £68 for an Anytime return.

Do we really want to rock this boat?

Quite. Though there is much that can be discussed about this matter, if Stena were required to be part fo the railway schemes, I;d be very surprised if they'd continue participating in through tickets. Its' a tiny market for them, and we risk losing a lot more than we'd gain.

 

[feline1]

Its' a tiny market for them, and we risk losing a lot more than we'd gain.

To my mind, this is a classic example of where the free market fails.
The relevant issues (integrated national and international public transport in and to/from the UK so as not to marginalise the regions and end up with everything/one going to live in London, and environmentally friendly low-carbon transport) are simply not congruent with Stena's business objective of maximising revenue.

 

[najaB]

To my mind, this is a classic example of where the free market fails.

To put a contrary point of view - it is a marginal revenue stream for Stena. Their main business objective is HGVs and, to a lesser extent, cars (so much so that their Belfast-Heysham route is HGV only).

Participating in SailRail gives them some additional income with very little expenditure on their part. In fact, they probably make as much through on-board tea and coffee sales to SailRail passengers as they do from the actual ticket revenue.

If it starts costing them through having to make Delay Repay payments larger than the actual income from tickets then the only logical business decision would be to stop participating.

 

[feline1]

To put a contrary point of view .

With respect, that's not a contrary point of view, it's in completely agreement and complement to what I said - you've explained very nicely why it's not in Stena's commercial interest to participate in integrated national & international public transport through ticketing.

My point is: such a thing *is* in the UK's interest, both economically and environmentally. Stena's interests are at odds with that. That is what I mean by the free market failing in this situation.

 

[kevinwaltets]

If it starts costing them through having to make Delay Repay payments larger than the actual income from tickets then the only logical business decision would be to stop participating.

Exactly right and if it starts costing shipping companies loads to pay delay repay compensation for circumstances out of their control, then the only people that will pay for this are the travelling public.

Ships are much different to trains as I have tried to explain and the delay margin therefore needs to set higher than in the rail model where every operator runs under one set of infrastructure and signs into a single contract with network rail.

 

[talltim]

The problem with that document is that, whilst it considers delays and compensation for them, it does not consider onward connections... which is not much use for a combined SailRail ticket scenario.
I think the actual sailing only arrived about 45 mins late, which is under that document's threshold for delay...
it was only me missing my advertised rail connection that made me 2 hours later overall.

I'm not convinced that this does not concern the onward connections, or at least if it is supposed not concern them, it is not written well. It specifically highlights delay in arrival at the final destination. and that you claim the compensation from the ferry service.

6. Right to request partial compensation of the ticket price in case of
delay in arrival to the final destination
Passengers may request compensation of 25% of the ticket price from the
ferry service, where the delay in arrival at the final destination exceeds:
 1 hour in case of a scheduled journey of up to 4 hours;
 2 hours in case of a scheduled journey of more than 4 hours, but not
exceeding 8 hours;
 3 hours in case of a scheduled journey of more than 8 hours, but not
exceeding 24 hours; or
 6 hours in case of a scheduled journey of more than 24 hours.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...CA_Summary_of_EU_Regulation_FINAL_3.12.14.pdf

 

[feline1]

Ships are much different to trains as I have tried to explain

The main causes of delay on my Stena journey were:
- half-assed understaffed passenger check-in desk
- half-assed baggage reclaim
- half-assed shuttle bus to the train station.

I don't see how these three things are somehow at the mercy of Poseidon. They've got nothing to do with any special nautical difficulties whatsoever. They're just crap customer service by a company that barely has 1 buttock between itself.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not convinced that this does not concern the onward connections, or at least if it is supposed not concern them, it is not written well. It specifically highlights delay in arrival at the final destination. and that you claim the compensation from the ferry service.

That's a good point, Tim, thanks!
I may draw it to Stena's attention. (Although I would place money on them taking a contrary view)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the delay margin therefore needs to set higher than in the rail model .

It already is. Look at the itinery I originally posted:
The boat arrives 17:05, the National Rail journey planner says to connect with a 19:00 train - that's an interchange time of almost TWO HOURS, hugely bigger than would be typical for a rail interchange.
This is acknowledging that boats find it harder to sail on time (due to wind and currents) and it takes more time to unload - the extra time required is already made allowance for.
It's when they can't even keep this that it might be appropriate to offer compensation.

 

[najaB]

The main causes of delay on my Stena journey were:
- half-assed understaffed passenger check-in desk
- half-assed baggage reclaim
- half-assed shuttle bus to the train station.

What time did the ferry dock?

 

[feline1]

What time did the ferry dock?

I can't honestly remember now.
I do remember their bus got us to Dublin Connolly at 19:05. So near, and yet so far... :cry:

 

[najaB]

I can't honestly remember now.
I do remember their bus got us to Dublin Connolly at 19:05. So near, and yet so far... :cry:

The reason I ask is because it always takes a long time to disembark. The last time I travelled Holyhead to Dublin I would say it was the better part of an hour before we were in the terminal. So if your crossing was delayed by an hour due to weather then there is your two hour connection gone.