Delay Repay: After Paddington problems, driver suggested alternative that was actually slower than waiting it out. GWR won't pay out completely

[trenopendo]

To make a long story short, I was travelling into London Paddington on Sunday the 26th of September. Using the Worcester-London Paddington GWR line.

Train suddenly stopped at Reading; mind you, it was already utterly packed and unbearable because of engineering works in the line. Train driver advised that Paddington Stn was not available because electrical works had overran, and he was going to wait it out until Paddington was available. He had no ETA. He suggested taking the Reading - London Waterloo service from SWR, which I did.

Now the Reading - Waterloo service is a commuter train that takes 1:30+ h, which meant I ultimately arrived some 70 minutes late to London Waterloo -- and probably 95 minutes late to Paddington.

On this basis, I submitted a Delay Repay claim to GWR.

Turns out that, had I not followed the advice of the train driver and sat down, the delay would had only been 30-59 minutes. And GWR is paying out on this basis.

But how could I possibly had predicted the future? I took a reasonable alternative (at the time) that meant I was delayed for more than 60 minutes, and I think it's reasonable to expect compensation on those terms. Particularly because the driver himself suggested that service.

Any thoughts? Much appreciated.


EDIT: I just realised this should have been posted in Disputes & Prosecutions, my bad.

Can a mod move this thread? Thanks

 

[py_megapixel]

I'm assuming that this advice to board the SWR service came from staff making a PA announcement?

In the first instance I'd appeal the DR claim and explain that you followed staff instructions. The rule is generally, I believe, that you are not allowed to intentionally delay yourself, but as long as your decisions are reasonable and made in good faith - which I think it would be hard to argue they weren't if staff told you to - you are entitled to the compensation for the full delay.

 

[30907]

Good luck with your claim!

Were you advised by anybody that SWR were accepting tickets?

I am struggling to work out the details of your journey on Sunday past. Perhaps you could clarify the time and place you started?

 

[furlong]

See https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=92850714

 

[trenopendo]

Hi @30907 and @py_megapixel

I can confirm that, at Reading, the train staff made a PA announcement indicating that the London Paddington works had overran, and that they had to wait there until they were finished. They also indicated that SWR would take tickets from GWR, and suggested the Reading - London Waterloo service.

As for the timeline:

*Expected Journey on the 26/09/2021: 10:13 WOS to PAD, arriving at 12:34.

What actually happened:

*Train stopped at RDG, staff suggested taking the 12:21 RDG to WAT, which I did.
*RDG to WAT service, by SWR, arrived at 13:48. This means 60+ minutes late, at the very least.
*Unbeknownst to me, the original WOS to PAD service resumed its journey. It arrived at PAD at 13:24, which is why GWR is not paying the full amount.

 

[furlong]

If you followed advice there's obviously little question about your entitlement, but have you actually sent in an appeal yet?

 

[AlterEgo]

OP: Do GWR even know you took an alternative service? Did you state what you did in your claim?

 

[30907]

Hi @30907 and @py_megapixel

I can confirm that, at Reading, the train staff made a PA announcement indicating that the London Paddington works had overran, and that they had to wait there until they were finished. They also indicated that SWR would take tickets from GWR, and suggested the Reading - London Waterloo service.

As for the timeline:

*Expected Journey on the 26/09/2021: 10:13 WOS to PAD, arriving at 12:34.

What actually happened:

*Train stopped at RDG, staff suggested taking the 12:21 RDG to WAT, which I did.
*RDG to WAT service, by SWR, arrived at 13:48. This means 60+ minutes late, at the very least.
*Unbeknownst to me, the original WOS to PAD service resumed its journey. It arrived at PAD at 13:24, which is why GWR is not paying the full amount.

Thank you. Your original post specified 3/10/21, which is why I was - to put it mildly - confused. I see you have now corrected this.

 

[trenopendo]

Alterego and furlong, thanks for your messages. No, I have not submitted an appeal. Considering your messages, I can assume that I am entitled to a refund that considers the actual (and not the GWR "perceived") loss.

The first decision of GWR indicates: your claim has been checked using a set process and the details of any delay verified using industry systems holding historic train running information. We have reviewed your claim (...) and paid X. I will also assume the "set process" can account for these edge cases, and I will appeal their decision -- and report back in due course. Thanks.

 

[Starmill]

Yes. Delay Repay is based on the comparison between the scheduled time and what actually happened.

 

[yorkie]

Alterego and furlong, thanks for your messages. No, I have not submitted an appeal. Considering your messages, I can assume that I am entitled to get a refund the considering the actual (and not the GWR "perceived") loss.

You're entitled to compensation based on the actual delay you experienced, yes

 

[Hadders]

It's likely that your claim has been processed by GWR's automated system which won't be aware of the advice given by staff. I would appeal and explain what actually happened. Appeals are dealt with by a human so there is a better chance of success.

 

[robbeech]

It's likely that your claim has been processed by GWR's automated system which won't be aware of the advice given by staff. I would appeal and explain what actually happened. Appeals are dealt with by a human so there is a better chance of success.

I'd certainly agree with this. The automated systems are only really good at very very simply delays, things like this usually end up in being thrown out or at best underpaid as we see here. A human being needs to look at this, i suspect an appeal with an explanation should yield the right result from any reasonable operator.

 

[trenopendo]

[UPDATE 20/10/2021]

GWR has denied my appeal. They said the following: Thank you for submitting your claim appeal. We have reviewed the information available to us and have upheld the original decision made, so no further compensation is due above the originally awarded £XX.XX.

They are asking me to contact delayrepay at gwr dot com if I don't agree, which I clearly don't.

I guess I need to do this in order to obtain a letter of deadlock and then go to the Rail Ombudsman?

Or could I proceed directly with the Ombudsman given that I have already received, effectively, 2 negatives to receive the compensation I'm duly owed?

Thanks!

 

[Watershed]

[UPDATE 20/10/2021]

GWR has denied my appeal. They said the following: Thank you for submitting your claim appeal. We have reviewed the information available to us and have upheld the original decision made, so no further compensation is due above the originally awarded £XX.XX.

They are asking me to contact delayrepay at gwr dot com if I don't agree, which I clearly don't.

I guess I need to do this in order to obtain a letter of deadlock and then go to the Rail Ombudsman?

Or could I proceed directly with the Ombudsman given that I have already received, effectively, 2 negatives to receive the compensation I'm duly owed?

Thanks!

You need to raise a complaint, and wait 8 weeks or until you either receive a deadlock (if sooner), before you can take it to the Ombudsman.

I suggest you write to the email address suggested, making clear you are raising a complaint about the incorrect rejection of your claim.

 

[trenopendo]

You need to raise a complaint, and wait 8 weeks or until you either receive a deadlock (if sooner), before you can take it to the Ombudsman.

I suggest you write to the email address suggested, making clear you are raising a complaint about the incorrect rejection of your claim.

This is very sad, I should say. GWR gives itself up to 20 working days for the initial response, 20 working days for the appeal, and then 40 working days to mull the matter before the Ombudsman can become involved.

A reflection of the raw deal we get in this country when using the train. What fraction of customers would actually go through that to successfully enforce their Delay Repay? A minute one, for sure.

 

[trenopendo]

I was travelling, on the 26/09/2021, on the 10:13 WOS to PAD service by GWR, expecting to arrive at 12:34 h. However, the train suddenly stopped at RDG, and we were informed by the train driver that PAD was closed due to problems with electrical works, and no ETA.

Driver suggested taking the 12:21 RDG to WAT service (run by SWR), which I did. This service arrived at WAT by 13:48 h.

As I was clearly entitled to a 60+ minutes Delay Repay claim, I submitted that claim on the very same day.

Ever since then, GWR has refused to acknowledge this fact and they are only paying according to the 30-59 minutes band as the original train, that was stuck in RDG, actually started moving at some point and arrived at PAD at 13:24 h.

My original Delay Repay claim was therefore not honoured. Then, I submitted an appeal that was denied on the 20/10/2021. After that, I have been trying to contact GWR via gwr (dot) feedback (at) gwr (dot) com, and also via delayrepay (at) gwr (dot) com.

My correspondence has been simply ignored by this shameless company.

I am very much tempted to issue MCOL proceedings and give this abusive company a taste of their own medicine, but I am admittedly worried about a magistrate being angry because the amount at play is not that significant. Alternatively, I think I am well entitled to take this to the Rail Ombudsman, but I see from different posts here that they are a joke. And a bad one at that.

Any suggestions? The TOCs will happily destroy your life over 5 pounds, but when they are the ones that have to pay up...

 

[AlterEgo]

You should contact the Rail Ombudsman before taking them to court, so it can be shown you exhausted all civil means of resolution before resorting to the County Court.

 

[skyhigh]

You need to raise a complaint, and wait 8 weeks or until you either receive a deadlock (if sooner), before you can take it to the Ombudsman.

I suggest you write to the email address suggested, making clear you are raising a complaint about the incorrect rejection of your claim.

This is very sad, I should say. GWR gives itself up to 20 working days for the initial response, 20 working days for the appeal, and then 40 working days to mull the matter before the Ombudsman can become involved.

A reflection of the raw deal we get in this country when using the train. What fraction of customers would actually go through that to successfully enforce their Delay Repay? A minute one, for sure.

Did you do this?

 

[mikeb42]

Any suggestions?

From much personal experience of obtaining compensation and refunds from GWR - sheer bloody minded persistence. The explanation is cockup over conspiracy every time in my experience. They were clearly drowning in compensation claims and complaints requiring human intervention before C***d. What it is like now with the likely staff shortages etc is anyone's guess.

The root problem is that the automated Delay Repay system clearly cannot cope with anything other than the most straightforward situation. If there is any human scrutiny of what the bots that process claims submitted to the Delay Repay portal are up to on a per-claim basis, it's totally ineffectual.

As far as I've ever been able to tell via outcomes, the initial appeal via your Delay Repay account is also completely automated with no human scrutiny. Others here more knowledgeable may actually know otherwise rather than having inferred this from outcomes though. All I know is that I've never experienced anything other than a rinse-and-repeat of the illegitimate rejection of my claim the first time around at this stage.

The next difficulty is getting a human with enough authority and knowledge to actually study your complaint once the automated route has been exhausted.

Snail mail letters on recorded delivery personally addressed to Mark Hopwood (MD of GWR again from Jan 21) have sometimes worked as a last resort. This does of course require significant investment of time, effort and expense.

Once you do get to an actual human with some authority, legitimate claims almost always get resolved sensibly in my experience.

They will, for example, capitulate eventually on issues like Delay Repay claims being rejected because the recording system thinks a train has arrived at Paddington once it is within a few hundred yards of the buffer stops. Rather than the reality of being locked inside the already yet-again-delayed train while it first of all grinds along the platform for another minute or two at about 3mph before stopping 5 coaches short of the buffers. Then spending several minutes fiddling about coupling with another train in the platform before finally freeing the further-delayed passengers instead of doing so as soon as possible and coupling later. No doubt because it is convenient for the railway. Every time on the same service, which is always late anyway. But you sometimes have to be prepared to argue and argue (and argue).

I've never ultimately failed yet, though I do sometimes give up first on the grounds that life is too short and I've already wasted too much of it hanging around waiting for GWR to get me somewhere I should have been ages ago.

 

[trenopendo]

Did you do this?

Yes, I certainly did this. Absolute radio silence from GWR.

 

[skyhigh]

Yes, I certainly did this. Absolute radio silence from GWR.

I'd suggest going to the Ombudsman would be the logical next step then before considering any further action.

 

[trenopendo]

Final update:

The Rail Ombudsman got GWR to pay up. They'll cover the total cost of my ticket, minus the 25% they had already refunded.

Of course the extra 50% (originally, I was due a 50% refund) does not cover all the time I invested on this, but hey, I'll take this.

 

[Starmill]

Final update:

The Rail Ombudsman got GWR to pay up. They'll cover the total cost of my ticket, minus the 25% they had already refunded.

Of course the extra 50% (originally, I was due a 50% refund) does not cover all the time I invested on this, but hey, I'll take this.

That's a very good result as a Rail Ombudsman negotiated settlement, because officially the Ombudsman cannot give adjudication punatively i.e. they cannot punish the service provider for the errors they've made, no matter how egregious. They can only give written advice to the service providers to suggest that they make improvements, and award what they think the customer is due under their own interpretation of the rules as they are set out and the facts based on the evidence submitted.

Of course, the amount does not in any way make up for your lost time or give GWR a 'second thought' to correct what I would call a serious error of process in this case. However, it may still be more for you than what the ombudsman would have awarded under adjudication.

Proper damages, which take into account the value of your lost time, could of course have been pursued through the County Court. But then that option is not something everyone is prepared to go for.