Delay Repay claims rejected

[Kite159]

I have had Northern Rail decline my Delay Repay claim for a 3 hour delay, even on appeal.

I travelled from Edinburgh Waverley to Manchester Piccadilly on Sunday September 18th, via Avanti to Preston and Northern from there.

The Northern train was slow, stopped for a while near Blackrod, then due to a blockage (I think signal failure) we were taken back to Preston. It then took nearly an hour for another train to Manchester to come. We reached Preston around 2 hours after we had originally left Preston.

By then there were no TransPennine trains running to Manchester, and the next one was Northern around an hour later. My ticket was a combined Avanti & Northern Saver single.

My claim form originally went to Arbroath and after a few weeks came back undelivered. I phoned Northern and a civilised agent admitted they are based at Sheffield. I therefore reposted my claim but this time added Sheffield to the Northern Rail Freepost Delay Repay address.

My claim came back declined. They found a routing via Warrington Bank Quay for which the trains were on time. This seemed unfair for several reasons. Among other things, we were never advised to stay on to Warrington Bank Quay for a suitable connection to Manchester. Furthermore, my ticket would not even have been valid via Warrington Bank Quay as the onward train to Manchester Piccadilly would have been a 3rd operator, Transport for Wales.

Last week, even my appeal came back declined. This time they said they needed more information. I had included my claim number in my letter. So, surely they had my details and ticket from my initial Delay Repay application?

This insulting experience, together with other less severe delays and the lack of assurance of trains running on the days I hope to travel, has contributed to my enjoyment of rail travel now being at an all-time low.

It's like they expect you to have a crystal ball to predict that the train from Preston towards Manchester was going to be delayed en-route.

Easier to claim online, that way you can keep the tickets and not rely on the postal system.

 

[MrJeeves]

Just want to add to this thread, but not complaining about rejections, instead giving an idea of network performance in my experience as I've been tracking my claims over the last few months.

I've made a total of 41 claims for journeys since 11 December 2022 and, of those, 34 have been approved, 2 are pending (one has been completely abandoned, thanks Avanti) and 5 have been rejected.

I think an average of one claim every ~2.4 days is a pretty bad look for our railways, but this is what it's been like for me, at least. Spreadsheet is attached below but I've hidden most of the details (references, times, stations).

Total award over the period is £154.60.

 

[robbeech]

Always useful to keep new things updated on this thread from time to time. Of course, the chances are any new posts will be negative ones and this is no exception.

Sunday i travelled out to Bradford and back from my "local if i drive to it" station of Kiverton park. I used a £15.30 off peak day return paper ticket from the machine (a reminder, the new software on the Northern machines with "quick buy" and the ability to do rovers and rangers is fantastic).

I went out via Leeds and returned via Huddersfield.

Proposed return 1452 Bradford Interchange to Huddersfield and then 1615 Huddersfield to Kiverton park (a Lincoln train). not always the quickest way but the easiest and actually the one that route planners suggested at that time of day.

The train was terminated short at Sheffield, this information wasn't apparent until Sheffield, so had to wait an hour and a bit for the next service. This really should be an open and shut case, it's clear what my journey was, it's clear i was over an hour late. Unfortunately, even though Northern found my exact proposed journey without having to manually enter it they have rejected the claim suggesting they cannot find a journey matching mine.

Is this REALLY just incompetent programming? If they cannot get something so utterly basic sorted with their system then they really do need to change the way they work to stop it rejecting these simple claims.

I have of course appealed and in the (250 characters max) box they allow you to write i have filled in my proposed journey and actual journey and reminded them their train stopped short. I am not holding my breath.

 

[MrJeeves]

My friend regularly has AWC reject claims when using his Swift-loaded nNetwork to make a journey.

Recently they claimed DR for a journey from Birmingham to Bletchley, using his nNetwork to Coventry and a return to Bletchley, splitting at Rugby.

Avanti rejected the claim, stating they did not provide the full ticket information.

They appealed, and Avanti rejected it stating the tickets were not valid for the journey made.

They then contacted customer services who passed the info onto the DR team, who have now approved the claim for a wonderful payout of £5. Well worth the effort...?

 

[superalbs]

Just want to add to this thread, but not complaining about rejections, instead giving an idea of network performance in my experience as I've been tracking my claims over the last few months.

I've made a total of 41 claims for journeys since 11 December 2022 and, of those, 34 have been approved, 2 are pending (one has been completely abandoned, thanks Avanti) and 5 have been rejected.

I think an average of one claim every ~2.4 days is a pretty bad look for our railways, but this is what it's been like for me, at least. Spreadsheet is attached below but I've hidden most of the details (references, times, stations).

Total award over the period is £154.60.

View attachment 131267

What a beautiful spreadsheet!

 

[MrJeeves]

What a beautiful spreadsheet!

Oh, it's grown a good amount since then!

 

[bob007]

a

they have rejected the claim suggesting they cannot find a journey matching mine.

Is this REALLY just incompetent programming?

IMO it’s just porky pie.

All these complicated delay repay systems with kafkaesque policies and procedures are there just to keep us busy, just like the existence of loads of TOCs keeps us (well, the average joe) angry at some private company or brand name instead of the government

I’ve sent TPE a pic of the display on the platform showing a train as cancelled before and they replied saying they couldn’t find it in their system…

 

[robbeech]

a


IMO it’s just porky pie.

All these complicated delay repay systems with kafkaesque policies and procedures are there just to keep us busy, just like the existence of loads of TOCs keeps us (well, the average joe) angry at some private company or brand name instead of the government

I’ve sent TPE a pic of the display on the platform showing a train as cancelled before and they replied saying they couldn’t find it in their system…

I think I’ve mentioned before in this thread but I have a spreadsheet where I make notes on claims and one row is a ‘predicted result’ where I wrote what I expect the operator to come back with. It’s almost always REJECT, and I also guess a reason. Sometimes it’s kind of understandable why the system might reject it, but with Northern it does still seem to be an excuse picked out of a hat. On this occasion my guess was REJECT : Cannot find train. 10 points to me as they cannot find the train that they themselves suggested to me was the train I took. Nothing more than a con.

I claimed off of XC for a different journey, put the claim in at the same time on Monday 17th, yesterday the 20th I received my RTV in the post. They can manage it.

 

[Aaron1]

I was recently delayed on an LNER train from Kings Cross to Doncaster which made me miss the last train of the night from Doncaster to Grimsby (a service I would have caught easily if LNER was on time, I had to rely on a taxi laid on and paid for by LNER at Doncaster to get home.

So claim made to LNER who rejected it 4 times! When I contacted them via DM on twitter I got told "Hi Aaron, having looked into this, as per the previous 4 emails we have sent you, as your connection was operated by another company you will need to claim from them" it was only when I contacted the customer customer service desk yesterday via telephone who said themselves they don't understand why it had been rejected 4 times was it finally approved, obviously having missed the last train I was entitled to every single penny back of bout outward and return journey but they also arranged another £50 on top of that paid via bank transfer as an apology.

 

[spag23]

but they also arranged another £50 on top of that paid via bank transfer as an apology.

If we were all entitled to £50 compensation from the TOC for our wasted time in such DR cases (in the same way as they charge £150 for investigating irregularities), their processes might improve.

 

[Egg Centric]

Cross Country form not working for me today. Sez

Unfortunately we have been unable to process your request on this occasion, please refresh the page and try again. If the problem persists, please contact our Customer Relations team.

So I've done just that; will see what happens but given the journey involves 4 tickets (automatically found by our eponymous retailer of course!) and only the last was XC (and in fairness to them it wasn't even their fault really - points failure at Leicester - but it was their service that was delayed) I am jaded enough at this point to assume there will be some kind of argument.

 

[robbeech]

A second rejection, exact same reasoning. It appears that the automated appeals process just puts your claim through the automated system again in the exact same manner, it isn't an appeal, it's just a completely new claim but without the system flagging it up as duplicate. For that reason, if you were rejected the first time, you'll be rejected the second time. It's clearly nothing more than a con to call it an "appeal". It is however likely useful for those who wish to add more information or ammend their claim, though it would be much better to word it that way.

I have e-mailed Customer services and politely described my delay in detail, pointed out the issue with the system for appeals and conditionally requested a deadlock letter should they too not be able to find the journey that they suggested.

It's a game to them, that much is clear. Thankfully, two can play.

 

[sot]

My greatest gripe with the resubmit brigade is that customer services tell you to state your case, yet provide no free entry text box. You are then forced to resubmit a claim you know will.be rejected or to chase it up again.

Clearly is a let's claim from NR and then try and avoid paying as much of it out as possible.

Actually, is it a money maker for TOCs or would that money end up in the DfT pocket in the end? I mean could the TOC use the claims from national rail to siphon funds into their pockets directly avoiding the DfT?

 

[robbeech]

My greatest gripe with the resubmit brigade is that customer services tell you to state your case, yet provide no free entry text box. You are then forced to resubmit a claim you know will.be rejected or to chase it up again.

Clearly is a let's claim from NR and then try and avoid paying as much of it out as possible.

Actually, is it a money maker for TOCs or would that money end up in the DfT pocket in the end? I mean could the TOC use the claims from national rail to siphon funds into their pockets directly avoiding the DfT?

In fairness on appeal the Northern one DOES give you a free entry box, though it has a 250 character limit so not a huge amount of space for anything more than. Proposed and actual journey, both of which you’ve already told them.
When you get to the ‘summary’ page before submitting it, there’s not summary of your free text you entered with the other details. It’s entirely possible that it’s a con and never actually goes anywhere. I guess if it just goes through the automated system again then it can’t possibly be used.

That said, a human looked at my claim and within an hour of my email has responded and approved my claim.

 

[Kite159]

Sometimes I use Paint to edit the scan copy of the ticket to write in further details (ie planned journey to what actually happened) as it gives more characters (and you get a record of what was written).

 

[robbeech]

Sometimes I use Paint to edit the scan copy of the ticket to write in further details (ie planned journey to what actually happened) as it gives more characters (and you get a record of what was written).

Yes. I used to take a photo of a ticket and insert it into a word document where I’d add text. Infact a couple of times I’d take a photo of my ticket sat on a bit of paper with a hand written note. I’ve not done that more recently as these automated systems won’t take any notice.

 

[AdamWW]

I do wonder to what extent the apparently good figures for successful claims are biased by people who just give up in the first place.

I just put a claim in to TfW.

I typed in my exact time of departure and it starts off by showing me journeys starting exactly an hour after that. I had to click for earlier trains to find one at the time I said I left.

Then after bringing up a box to tell me where to find my ticket number I clicked "back" rather than on the "x" on the box and it wiped out everything I'd typed in. It is not necessary for a web page to act like that.

So I start again, and then it tells me "Sorry we could not find your ticket and could see that your travel date is not today". (Amazingly clever of it - almost as if I told it I travelled on a different date).

So I have to add more details.

Including information I've already told them, but now as well as the ticket "number" I need its "reference". I have no idea what they want for that but the box has to be filled in. And it won't let you put "???" either.

Then I have to give bank account details because they can't put it on a card.

Maybe they don't delibearately make the process hard but they certainly haven't gone out of their way to make it easy either.

 

[trainophile]

Anyone had any problems with WMR claims? I put in a manual claim to their Customer Support on 3rd January for a disappeared train, which resulted in my journey being an hour later than the Advance ticket I held for 2nd Jan. Journey was on WMR and LNR trains. I couldn't use their auto claim form as my ticketed journey no longer existed in their system. I never heard anything and assumed it was one of those "removed before 10:00 the previous night" get-out excuses.

However yesterday I received a surprise email from them which presumably refers to this claim (I have had others in the meantime which have been settled promptly), as follows:

"Thank you for contacting West Midlands Trains.

I am sorry to hear about the issues you were experiencing while trying to submit a delay repay claim.

To allow me to assist you with a refund manually, could you please provide the following information:

• An image of your rail ticket (spoiled if this is a paper day ticket) or proof of purchase
• Your bank account number & sort code
• Your full postal address..."

I tried to access my account to double check that this is the claim they are referring to, as it's been so long, but despite entering the claim ref. they quote to me and the email address they just wrote to, I keep being unable to access my account as it keeps saying:

"Error!
Your claim reference number, email address or postcode is not correct. Please try again"

(It might be easier to use their DR form if they didn't keep popping up that "if you're claiming for a season ticket..." box that covers part of the screen, but that's by the by.)

I've replied to the latest email explaining that I can't get into my account, but wondered if it's just me or has anyone else experience a similar problem. I have probably binned the relevant ticket by now anyway and written off the matter, but it's rather frustrating not being able to access my account.

Edit: Thinking about it, it's probably because they didn't inform me of the claim ref. they allocated, as it wasn't through their automated system. However it obviously generated a claim ref. at some stage.

 

[jrh2254]

Success !! After crosscountry passed on my claim to GWR , I called them and they said my journey times had defaulted to some random times (well they seemed random to me!), so they had sent the claim to GWR! They corrected them over the phone. 10 minutes later I received another email saying it had been passed to GWR and the following day a response from GWR they had rejected my claim!
Confused, I called crosscountry and they confirmed I should ignore the correspondence about GWR as it was just an auto system generated issue!
They confirmed my claim was approved in full on their system !
Later in the day I received confirmation from crosscountry of the approval and the amount.
But why the torturous process ?

 

[Aaron1]

Everytime I make a claim for TPE now they have made a point of asking me for extra proof I was indeed on the train I claim to be on! When I called the customer service line to enquire what proof they need she reeled of a list, such as taking picture of the station clock etc which coincides with my claim (how inconvenient) she then said even a selfie with guard will help, I just need some evidence.

When I asked why this is needed as it is ridiculous they had no answer at all and when I asked what if the train is cancelled so why would I be at the station then to take this crazy picture of the station clock again no real answer to this.

Has anybody else had this?

 

[3rd rail land]

Everytime I make a claim for TPE now they have made a point of asking me for extra proof I was indeed on the train I claim to be on! When I called the customer service line to enquire what proof they need she reeled of a list, such as taking picture of the station clock etc which coincides with my claim (how inconvenient) she then said even a selfie with guard will help, I just need some evidence.

When I asked why this is needed as it is ridiculous they had no answer at all and when I asked what if the train is cancelled so why would I be at the station then to take this crazy picture of the station clock again no real answer to this.

Has anybody else had this?

Are they rejecting your claims when you don't provide this 'extra proof' they have requested? If it were me I wouldn't provide this proof, as there is no requirement for me to do so, and go through the entire appeal procedure etc as they can't be allowed to get away with this behaviour. The fact they couldn't answer your perfectly reasonable questions tells you all you need to know! If they didn't back down on this I would be tempted to involve my MP.

 

[Watershed]

Everytime I make a claim for TPE now they have made a point of asking me for extra proof I was indeed on the train I claim to be on! When I called the customer service line to enquire what proof they need she reeled of a list, such as taking picture of the station clock etc which coincides with my claim (how inconvenient) she then said even a selfie with guard will help, I just need some evidence.

When I asked why this is needed as it is ridiculous they had no answer at all and when I asked what if the train is cancelled so why would I be at the station then to take this crazy picture of the station clock again no real answer to this.

Has anybody else had this?

This sounds like utter nonsense to me. You're not required to be at the station at the time the train is due to have departed. If it's cancelled hours in advance, there's nothing to say you can't spend the time until the next train at home or in the pub, for example!

The only time where you'd potentially encounter problems by doing this would be if they put on alternative transport or arranged a Special Stop Order to reduce the delay. But neither is very likely in Britain if there's "only" an hour's wait for the next train.

 

[gray1404]

Everytime I make a claim for TPE now they have made a point of asking me for extra proof I was indeed on the train I claim to be on! When I called the customer service line to enquire what proof they need she reeled of a list, such as taking picture of the station clock etc which coincides with my claim (how inconvenient) she then said even a selfie with guard will help, I just need some evidence.

When I asked why this is needed as it is ridiculous they had no answer at all and when I asked what if the train is cancelled so why would I be at the station then to take this crazy picture of the station clock again no real answer to this.

Has anybody else had this?

If you could upload a copy of the email they have sent you asking for extra proof that would be very useful and greatly appreciated? By the sounds of it you have had this request multiple times.

 

[fusionblue]

I had a weekly season ticket with Southeastern this week (bought in february) that was stil the better value for me. All services down the hayes line was cancelled on both strike days this week, but they rejected my earlier claim because "Weekly Season ticket holders can claim Delay Repay if a ‘Do Not Travel’ warning was in place, or their train was delayed or cancelled on the day if your service was running – we publish this information at least two weeks ahead of any strike action on our website.

This should have taken 30 seconds to verify, but seems deliberately written to exclude those whose services are not scheduled to run, not explicitly cancelled on the day.

Rather than argue with Southeastern I just switched to TFL-only services instead. The money SE lost from me doing so is higher than the delay repay claim they rejected me for, and i'm getting the added bonus of walking significantly more.

 

[AlterEgo]

Rather than argue with Southeastern I just switched to TFL-only services instead. The money SE lost from me doing so is higher than the delay repay claim they rejected me for, and i'm getting the added bonus of walking significantly more.

The revenue is guaranteed by the government so you’ll just pay for it another way, such is the nature of today’s railway.

 

[fusionblue]

The revenue is guaranteed by the government so you’ll just pay for it another way, such is the nature of today’s railway.

The government is guaranteeing revenue, but I'm not directly giving SE any of mine That's the most I can do.

 

[paul1609]

The government is guaranteeing revenue, but I'm not directly giving SE any of mine That's the most I can do.

Southeastern are a wholly owned subsidiary of Dft OLR trains Ltd they are the government.

 

[Egg Centric]

Dear Mr Centric,

Thank you for your email.

I note your feedback regarding the compensation issued.

Having reassessed your claim, as your delay was only between Peterborough and Cambridge and as you were travelling with a split ticket specific to your journey and finally as the earlier parts of your journey were with LNER, we would not consider the other tickets when issuing compensation. If you were travelling with a through ticket, then the whole ticket cost would be considered. I hope this information is of assistance.

Thank you for your time.

Yours sincerely

Escalated immediately of course... fairly standard story of split ticketing being rejected.

 

[robbeech]

Appalling that they're still trying this on. unsurprising though. I do wonder if there's a way to obtain the data of the rejections and reasonings.

 

[Hadders]

Escalated immediately of course... fairly standard story of split ticketing being rejected.

I thought they’d moved on from this a few years ago. Disappointing to see them still trying it on.