Delay Repay - GTR says delay was much lower

[JamesRowden]

The cost of Delay Repay is such a tiny drop in the ocean that it doesn’t even come into the thought process when improving performance. I worked in a control room and know lots of controllers and I can confidently say they know pretty much nothing about Delay Repay. That’s one of the biggest misconceptions on this forum. Schedule 8 payments are far, far greater.

So delay repay makes the railway more expensive (through the cost of running the scheme) and does not provide a TOC with any additional motivation to provide a more reliable service?

I would expect the reduced profit to have some effect on the TOC owner's decisions, if possibly relatively small.

 

[najaB]

So delay repay makes the railway more expensive (through the cost of running the scheme)...

Not really. It's lost in the noise.

 

[JamesRowden]

Not really. It's lost in the noise.

It costs money, that expense is gone, no noise is going to bring that particular money back.

 

[najaB]

It costs money, that expense is gone, no noise is going to bring that particular money back.

True. But one needs to be wary of missing the forest because of all the damned trees getting in the way. Delay Repay isn't going to make or break a franchise.

 

[JamesRowden]

True. But one needs to be wary of missing the forest because of all the damned trees getting in the way. Delay Repay isn't going to make or break a franchise.

But if you round a huge number of individual costs down to zero because you think each one is not worth much in terms of your year's earnings, over a year you might have wasted a lot of savings with a reasonable saving per unit effort ratio.

 

[AlterEgo]

So delay repay makes the railway more expensive (through the cost of running the scheme) and does not provide a TOC with any additional motivation to provide a more reliable service?

I would expect the reduced profit to have some effect on the TOC owner's decisions, if possibly relatively small.

Correct - it makes running the railway more expensive by (rightly) providing passengers with compensation for delays, even if nobody is at fault for that delay.

Thinking TOCs base any train running decisions at all on how much Delay Repay is payable is the most deeply embedded fallacy on the forum. Anyone who works in a control room, performance or timetabling would agree.

Schedule 8 is what matters and that’s very, very expensive from the TOC viewpoint.

 

[najaB]

But if you round a huge number of individual costs down to zero because you think each one is not worth much in terms of your year's earnings, over a year you might have wasted a lot of savings with a reasonable saving per unit effort ratio.

But your proposal doesn't do anything to reduce the cost of Delay Repay, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

 

[JamesRowden]

But your proposal doesn't do anything to reduce the cost of Delay Repay, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

I'm suggesting the alternative of scrapping delay repay and cutting fares to make it revenue neutral. Makes everything simpler.

 

[mmh]

I'm suggesting the alternative of scrapping delay repay and cutting fares to make it revenue neutral. Makes everything simpler.

Once you've introduced a scheme like delay repay, it becomes nigh-on impossible to scrap.

Besides which, I suspect the cost of delay repay would equate to a miniscule tiny fraction of a percent of ticket fares. Plus it would be a one-off reduction. I can't see how it would benefit anyone.

 

[JamesRowden]

Once you've introduced a scheme like delay repay, it becomes nigh-on impossible to scrap.

Besides which, I suspect the cost of delay repay would equate to a miniscule tiny fraction of a percent of ticket fares. Plus it would be a one-off reduction. I can't see how it would benefit anyone.

I am thinking about a hypothetical world where politicians do what's best rather than what's to their political advantage.

Those who don't presently claim would get cheaper fares without losing anything. Those who presently claim would get cheaper fares and never have the hassle of needing to claim. The money presently invested in administering the scheme could be split between making fares cheaper and cutting national debt.

 

[Hadders]

I'm suggesting the alternative of scrapping delay repay and cutting fares to make it revenue neutral. Makes everything simpler.

How much would you expect an Anytime Return from London to Manchester (current cost £350) to reduce by under your plan?

Or at the other end of the scale what reduction would you expect for an Anytime Day Return from Lichfield City to Lichfield Trent Valley (current cost £1.00)?

I think most passengers would rather keep the present system.

 

[JamesRowden]

How much would you expect an Anytime Return from London to Manchester (current cost £350) to reduce by under your plan?

Or at the other end of the scale what reduction would you expect for an Anytime Day Return from Lichfield City to Lichfield Trent Valley (current cost £1.00)?

I think most passengers would rather keep the present system.

NewFare = OldFrare - AveragePresentDelayRepayCompensationOfSelectedTicket

Or alternatively:
NewFare = OldFare * (1 - AverageNationalTotalDelayRepayCompensation / AverageNationalTotalTicketSales)

 

[Hadders]

The reduction would end up being so small they wouldn’t bother.

 

[JamesRowden]

The reduction would end up being so small they wouldn’t bother.

Over the past few years, I would estimate that my delay repay compensation rate has been about 16%. £80 per year on average is a decent amount of money.

 

[Hadders]

I got significantly more than that last year but I do loads of rail travel.

Even the amount you quoted won’t be representative.

There is no way on earth that railbfares will get reduced by anything like the amounts you quote.

 

[JamesRowden]

I got significantly more than that last year but I do loads of rail travel.

Even the amount you quoted won’t be representative.

There is no way on earth that railbfares will get reduced by anything like the amounts you quote.

I wasn't saying that they reduce by that much. Just giving you the only data that I have.

It is delay repay which adds complication and work and which could 'not bothered' with.

In the end, I value every bit of money and dislike every bit of wasted effort. Every bit adds up in the end.

 

[najaB]

The reduction would end up being so small they wouldn’t bother.

Indeed. Using the example of an Anytime London to Manchester fare I'd be very surprised if the reduction would be over a pound. Delay Repay claims just don't account for that big of a percentage of ticket revenue.

 

[35B]

I'm suggesting the alternative of scrapping delay repay and cutting fares to make it revenue neutral. Makes everything simpler.

I remember the days before Delay Repay, and don't wish to go back there. As a paying customer, I regard the acknowledgement of my rights as a customer by "the railway" when they can't/don't deliver on their promises in the timetable as long overdue.

 

[najaB]

I'm suggesting the alternative of scrapping delay repay and cutting fares to make it revenue neutral. Makes everything simpler.

I struggle to see how anyone is a winner in this scenario. Take an infrequent traveller who has to make a long-distance journey. Are they meaningfully better off if the ticket costs £150 rather than £152? Not really. They then experience a 60 minute delay during their journey - under delay repay they would receive at least £76 back. Without delay repay they get nothing back.

Since it's revenue neutral, the railway is no better off either.

Take a frequent traveller who makes 100 round trips a year at £100 per ticket (just to make the numbers easier). They currently experience a delay of 30+ minutes ten times a year, so they get £250 back. Their fare is reduced by £2.50 as a result of Delay Repay being abolished - are they any better off? Consider also that many frequent travellers' fare is paid by their employer and many employers let the employee keep any delay repay (since it's compensation rather than a refund). Those travellers would definitely be worse off!

To me it makes more sense that people who experience a delay get meaningful compensation for that delay, rather than everyone getting a tiny reducution in their fares.