Delay Repay Std Advance + Season Ticket

[Chrisgr31]

Today I travelled from Manchester to Uckfield. The Manchester to London eg was done on a Std Advance ticket with a reservation on the 13.35.

I then crossed London using my Oyster PAYG and got to London Bridge in time to catch the 16:38 to Uckfield only to find it cancelled and the alternative was train to East Grinstead and replacement bus. I have an annual season for the London Uckfield bit.

For the delay repay is it just my season ticket bit I can claim on or can I claim on the Manchester portion as well?

 

[yorkie]

http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/customer-services/delay-repay

If we have delayed your journey by 30 minutes or more against the published train schedule for that day (including train cancellation) then we will compensate you. You can claim compensation from us using our Delay Repay scheme.

Your journey was Manchester to Uckfield (NRCoC 19)

If the bus arrived at or after 1820 you're eligible.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Thanks for the swift reply

 

[CyrusWuff]

With all due respect to Yorkie, I would suggest that you'll have a hard job getting Southern to accept a claim for the full journey from Manchester to Uckfield given the cross-London transfer was made using Oyster.

Had the Advance been Manchester to Zone U1, or the season ticket been a Travelcard, then I'd agree that it would be classed as one "journey" for Delay Repay purposes, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.

 

[bb21]

I agree. I think this is not as well defined as we would like. NRCoC 19 allows a passenger to "use two or more tickets for one journey", but you have no valid ticket for the middle leg of your "journey". (This would not have been a problem had you purchased a paper single ticket.)

In my opinion, a ticket to London Terminals and another from London Terminals should be considered as continuous components of a "journey", similar to the arrangements in all other cities with multiple terminal stations, but apparently ATOC take a different view, as evidenced by their "Advance Fare FAQs".

So this matter is far less clear cut than I would have liked, and I think you may struggle to convince Southern that it were indeed one journey from Manchester should they decline your claim.

 

[yorkie]

In my opinion, a ticket to London Terminals and another from London Terminals should be considered as continuous components of a "journey", similar to the arrangements in all other cities with multiple terminal stations,

I agree.

Also the person doing the Delay Repay claim is unlikely to think about it in the sort of depth we are doing here. They'll either be thinking yes it's the whole journey, or they may (incorrectly in my opinion) be thinking it's only the part of the journey on Southern that's eligible for delay repay.

but apparently ATOC take a different view, as evidenced by their "Advance Fare FAQs".

I'm not at all convinced by this. This scenario is neither given in the "included" nor "not included" sections, and the example of using a paper ticket is probably given for simplicity.

If anyone has evidence of ATOC stataing that smart card tickets result in reduced passenger rights, that would be strong evidence to object to their introduction, and we need to go to our MPs and the DfT about that.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'd like to agree with Yorkie, it should be the whole journey, but, having looked at Southern's Passenger Charter, I think I have to say the most likely outcome is that suggested by CyrusWuff and bb21. The Oystercard could be a reason given, but I don't think the charter reads in your favour either.

 

[Paul Kelly]

If anyone has evidence of ATOC stataing that smart card tickets result in reduced passenger rights, that would be strong evidence to object to their introduction, and we need to go to our MPs and the DfT about that.

I think we should be careful not to confuse/conflate the two separate situations:

1. A passenger is in possession of a validated (i.e. touched in) PAYG Oyster card, and no ticket is needed
2. A passenger is in possession of a ticket stored in electronic form, e.g. a season ticket on Oyster or a normal single/return ticket on an ITSO card

Personally, I don't believe that a validated PAYG Oyster card constitutes a ticket. But the NRCoC is a bit vague on this. Section 9 says In some cases a Train Company, transport authority, travel agent or other authorised person may issue you with a ticket where the details of the trains you are entitled to use, together with any rights to goods or services supplied by another person, are stored only in electronic form. I'm not sure that a touched-in PAYG Oyster can be considered as storing "details of the trains you are entitled to use". Maybe it can, but it's a bit abstract.

The TfL conditions of carriage seem a bit clearer; section 3.1 says In these conditions [...] ‘you’ means any customer holding a ticket or tickets, holding an Oyster card with a season ticket and/or pay as you go credit on it or a contactless payment card. This seems to agree that a PAYG Oyster does not contain a ticket.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I suspect that the use of Oyster for the tube leg would be treated the same as if the OP had purchased a "paper" ticket for the tube, and would thus be excluded by virtue of being a non-TOC ticket per the Advance Fares FAQ (even if the hypothetical paper ticket had been issued by one of the NR Ticket Offices at Euston!), but I'm willing to be proven incorrect.

 

[yorkie]

But it is one journey. Leaving Euston to take a train from Victoria isnt even "breaking" it, let alone starting a new one.

The FAQs cover a separate matter, albeit related, and are just trying to ensure people are aware that the transfers both require use of LU to be valid (as opposed to walking etc) and also that LU do require passengers to hold a ticket

People are reading things into it that are not explicitly stated and that is open to interpretation. As its not a Delay Repay FAQ and as it doesn't specifically say this is "not included" I see no reason why the use of PAYG splits a journey into 2 or more journeys.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Personally, I don't believe that a validated PAYG Oyster card constitutes a ticket.

I'm curious as to why? The "touch in" on the PAYG Oyster card applies a charge for the journey, and this charge is based on what station you touch in at and what the potential journey options are from there. IMO that's as much of a ticket as a Travelcard season on Oyster. When you "touch out" you are (usually) given a rebate for the part of the charge you didn't use.

The FAQ says this about delays at Q22:

Not included: for the avoidance of doubt, are:

Non train-company travel on separate tickets e.g. journeys that commence on bus-only, tube-only, ferry-only or metro-only tickets. (This includes “PlusBus” which is a local day- Rover bus ticket, not compatible with a medium/ long distance ‘Advance’ single journey, so are kept as separate tickets); or
Tickets that cannot be read on-train e.g. smartcards (but allowable where electronically checked, delay verified and Advance ticket endorsed in Travel Centres).

If you send off your Oyster statement together with your tickets, I don't see why this wouldn't count as "electronically checked and delay verified".

I suspect that the use of Oyster for the tube leg would be treated the same as if the OP had purchased a "paper" ticket for the tube, and would thus be excluded by virtue of being a non-TOC ticket per the Advance Fares FAQ (even if the hypothetical paper ticket had been issued by one of the NR Ticket Offices at Euston!), but I'm willing to be proven incorrect.

The Advance FAQ includes tube travel as an allowable delay, provided that you started your journey on National Rail.

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held. Examples are:
e.g. Advance ticket Bristol-Paddington plus tube single ticket plus Advance ticket Kings Cross to Hull.

It all comes down to what counts as a "Tube single ticket".

 

[bb21]

We can all agree that a season ticket held on Oyster is a ticket, but is Oyster PAYG a ticket? I guess that is the $64000 question.

We know that a capped Oyster is not the same as a Day Travelcard (even when the prices were the same), which is part of the reason why I don't think Oyster PAYG is anything more than a payment method, like contactless payment, and that is certainly part of the reason why I am sceptical about the rollout of smartcard ticketing (without guarantee about passenger's rights being protected).

 

[Paul Kelly]

The "touch in" on the PAYG Oyster card applies a charge for the journey, and this charge is based on what station you touch in at and what the potential journey options are from there. IMO that's as much of a ticket as a Travelcard season on Oyster. When you "touch out" you are (usually) given a rebate for the part of the charge you didn't use.

I do see where you're coming from there, and I was also thinking along the same lines, but I think it's just a bit of a stretch to describe the operation of such a charge/rebate system as being in possession of a ticket.

I don't dispute that a touched-in PAYG Oyster constitutes possession of a valid fare for the journey being made. I just don't agree that the act of deducting the entry charge from the card, nor the fact that the card then has a reduced PAYG balance is in itself a ticket. I think a ticket (whether electronic or physical) has to be somehow explicitly issued or created.

It is a fine point, but it's hard to know whether the Oyster system works like this by accident or design, and I agree with bb21 that we should be careful this distinction isn't used to passengers' disadvantage in the future, but on the other hand ITSO schemes generally seem to involve electronic storage of a ticket rather than a PAYG charge/rebate system, so perhaps it won't be a big issue.

 

[455driver]

How many threads have we had where people have been delayed on the tube and then missed the train their Advance ticket was booked on and the general consensus is tough because the tube is not part of NR (or something like that)!

Okay this is a through journey but the ticketed part was completed on time and using Yorkies logic (no offence) all you would have to do to claim your money back is to wait at the other London Terminus until you see a train cancellation and then put a claim in against it!
I can think of one family that do similar things!

 

[Chrisgr31]

Okay this is a through journey but the ticketed part was completed on time and using Yorkies logic (no offence) all you would have to do to claim your money back is to wait at the other London Terminus until you see a train cancellation and then put a claim in against it!
I can think of one family that do similar things!

I understand the logic of your argument but in this particular case I had a reservation on the train from Manchester and I was fixed on that train.

Anyway I'll stick in an application with my Manchester tickets, my oyster statement and my keycard and see where it goes and report back.

 

[yorkie]

How many threads have we had where people have been delayed on the tube and then missed the train their Advance ticket was booked on and the general consensus is tough because the tube is not part of NR (or something like that)!

It's complex. But, in this case, the delay wasn't on LU.

If the delay was on LU, you may still be covered for a journey (as in the tickets are not invalidated), but it depends on the exact tickets held.

However if LU caused the delay then Delay Repay isn't applicable. If there were multiple delays then it really depends on the exact circumstances.

Okay this is a through journey but the ticketed part was completed on time and using Yorkies logic (no offence) all you would have to do to claim your money back is to wait at the other London Terminus until you see a train cancellation and then put a claim in against it!
I can think of one family that do similar things!

Ah, I think you misunderstood then, as the ticketed parts were:

• Manchester - London Terminals;
• London Terminals - Uckfield (delay occurred on this leg)

The only part of the journey that may not have been ticketed (depending on the definition of ticketed) was LU, where it may or may not be relevant, depending on your interpretation of the Advance Fares FAQ, which may or may not be used to determine a journey for the purposes of delay compensation, depending on your interpretation of the term "journey".

Clear?

When crossing any other station group (Birmingham Stns, Bradford Stns etc) there is no 'requirement' to do anything other than walk. In the case of London Terminals, there is no compulsion to take LU, except for the fact that minimum interchange times require the use of LU (except KGX-STP). This, in my opinion, only becomes relevant if you miss the departure time of the onward train (not applicable in this case). If you did miss the departure time of the onward train due to a delayed taxi, getting lost, delayed bus or so on, then that could potentially be seen as invalidating an Advance ticket.

I do not think the use of PAYG between the relevant London Terminals means that the journey is not from Manchester to Uckfield. This was not, in my opinion, three separate journeys.

 

[455driver]

Ah I see what you mean now, it will all depend on how they class the 'London terminals', whether its one 'terminal' or whether its separate 'terminals' and so 2 separate trips*?

Stick in the claim and see what they say, and then appeal the decision!

* I wont use the term 'journey'

 

[Chrisgr31]

http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/customer-services/delay-repay
Your journey was Manchester to Uckfield (NRCoC 19)

If the bus arrived at or after 1820 you're eligible.

I can report that Southern agreed with you. Just received delay repay vouchers for the whole journey, although no idea if they include the cross london bit, I didn't include proof of that as part of my claim.